Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Lead bolts  (Read 5169 times)

Number4

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2011, 12:07:38 am »

Anyone knows how early musket velocity and bullet mass compares to the velocity and bolt mass of a good, (heavy) crossbow IRL?
Logged
Thanks for the suggestion, but Number4 is correct: [...] it would be easier and more predictable to just be a racist.

Did somebody just rule 34 two veins of metal?

Montague

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2011, 01:08:40 am »

From what I know, lead is useless for projectiles. While it has weight, its other properties, shearing, elastic deformation and these other things the DF engine takes into account for creating physical trauma, make it terrible at actually cutting or penetrating a foe.

Even with absurdly modded weapons, lead ammo tends to just shove enemies back by sheer (weight*velocity) but never does anything besides bruise fat or maybe chip bone if you are lucky. Because lead is too soft, too bendy, doesn't hold a sharp edge and doesn't stay rigid, it cannot hurt anybody that badly. Its like the damage you can expect from throwing guts or sand at enemies in Advent mode.
Logged

Girlinhat

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PREFSTRING:large ears]
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2011, 02:11:11 am »

For the record, RL lead bullets were made because iron is relatively valuable while lead is often a byproduct.  There's so much lead available that it can be thrown away by the crate-load!  Full metal jackets are the equivalent of solid iron/steel ammo, except it has a lead core (hence the "jacket" of hard metal) because the core doesn't matter as much for bullets.  The jacket allows it to more easily pierce through cars and wooden buildings and such, and then the deformed lead and steel bullet would hit someone and hurt them through sheer force of impact.

Which was what it comes down to.  1) Lead is plentiful, and 2) Bolts fly pretty fast.  Lead bolts may not crack through bronze helmets and skulls, but they can hit the undefended arm or leg of a goblin, wound them, and make them flee.  It's not a glorious battle tactic, but if you've got enough lead to build your fort twice over with the stuff, then you might as well fire the stuff.  As mentioned before, you can make lead ammo with the appropriate token, and you can give it a bit more of copper's weapon stats, to make sure it's a bit more worthwhile than wooden bolts.  Remember that even at default values, wooden bolts can get stuck into any unarmored body part, so a lead bolt is rather likely to inflict some damage to simple foes.

SmileyMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2011, 02:57:28 am »

Well, I've had lead bolts for a while now, with the default values from the raws, and i can report the following field experiences:

1) Squad of lead-shooting marksdwarves will consistenly beat their wood or silver counterparts in a totally unarmoured stand-off.  Cumulative damage is the key here - the lead bolts rarely cut the skin, but it's bruise, chip, fracture every time.  And a head-shot is an instakill.  It's close though, in 10v10 there will be two or three survivors (usually badly injured) but always on the lead side.

2) In fortress mode, it's great ammo for hunters, because their prey has just bare skin.  Because it causes more pain than the wooden or silver bolts, the chance of a retaliating prey getting a lucky strike are much much lower.  If you've got lots of lead, make lead bolts and give it to the hunters.

3) Much like silver, it's pretty useless against metal armoured opponents.  However, it could be very good for crowd control, since the non-cutting subdual action makes it like a modern rubber bullet.  I haven't had the situation come up, but a guardsdwarf with lead bolts would take out a berserker with ease, and without spraying blood all over your nice clean dining room.

4) It's cool, because it's a significantly different type of weapon.  Like hammer at a distance.

So not a replacement for iron, but if you're short on the good stuff, it's not completely useless.
Logged
In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

NinjaE8825

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2011, 08:15:15 am »

Man I just want to be able to boil lead and pour it on goblins.
Logged

Mckee

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2011, 08:42:55 am »

Can it be used for ballista ammunition? I suppose once the projectile reaches that kind of size and speed, material is fairly unimportant. I know siege engines are of less utility than marksdwarfes, but its another option for using up your lead and killing things.
Logged
'What good is a lesson if your idiot is too dead to learn from it?'

Psieye

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2011, 09:12:29 am »

Can it be used for ballista ammunition? I suppose once the projectile reaches that kind of size and speed, material is fairly unimportant. I know siege engines are of less utility than marksdwarfes, but its another option for using up your lead and killing things.
Again, you just add a single tag and it'll work. Look in the raws for say, iron to see how it's done. My fort has goblins attacking with platinum scourges and gold maces, no matter how unrealistic that would be in real life.
Logged
Military Training EXP Analysis
Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

UristMcHuman

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2011, 09:21:44 pm »

Lead bolts, in later versions, should be able to melt in the skin and blood of the target, causing a Syndrome (that should be) known as Lead Poisoning. Same thing should also be applied to lead or lay pewter flasks (since lay pewter is made with lead).
Logged

EmperorJon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still waiting...
    • View Profile
Re: Lead bolts
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 11:04:31 am »

It is infact possible to allow this when a bolt become Stuck In, though a bit cumbersome... with the syndrome rewrites recently maybe we'll be in luck.
Logged
I think it's the way towns develop now. In the beginning, people move into a town. Then they start producing tables, which results in more and more tables. Soon tables represent a significant portion of the population, they start lobbying for new laws and regulations, putting people to greater and greater disadvantage...
Link for full quote. 'tis mighty funny.
Pages: 1 [2]