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Author Topic: My military are just expensive pincushions?  (Read 4534 times)

Syrup Roast

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2011, 10:34:37 pm »

Armor skill?  None.  It only makes them faster while wearing armor, and since candy is so light it technically floats in water (if DF supported buoyancy) this doesn't help. 

According to my tests in the arena, this is horribly wrong. In 13 one-on-one duels between steel-clad dwarfs with steel swords that only differed in skills (one was grandmaster armour user, the other was unskilled armour user), the grandmaster won 12 out of 13 times. Since I had given them no shields to test this, the grandmaster took hits too, but more blows were deflected. In some duels, the grandmaster also lost limbs during the fight, but they were in general smaller, less vital parts.

The armor user skill decreases the weight hindrance from armor - Those grandmaster armor users were likely considerably faster than their unskilled counterparts.
Also to note is that Armor User trains up very important combat-related attributes; namely Strength, Toughness, Endurance, Willpower and Kinesthetic Sense (though it might not show up in arena).
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Rask

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2011, 03:41:19 am »

As a side note, something I discovered about training armour user that should be obvious, but wasn't to me:

To train it, your dwarf should actually be wearing armour. Regular clothes work at a much, much reduced rate. Just put a fully armoured dwarf without weapon and shield into the danger room, and you'll see that it doesn't take much longer to reach legendary than for other skills. One that's only wearing clothes instead will still take ages.
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Satarus

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2011, 10:36:17 am »

Remember, faces and throats cannot be protected by metal armor (throat can be protected by clothing, but it will degrade over time including candy ones).  So those bolts coming at your dwarves will eventually hit vital spots not protected.  This is why shield user and dodge skills are very important.  Legendary shield users and dodgers can charge bowgoblin positions without fear.  Those with lower skills could likely take a fatal throat or face shot.
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Sir Iryn

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2011, 10:47:25 am »

Chainmail does protect the throat. Breastplates don't. You should be giving your soldiers both, anyways.

Also, if you're lucky and your goblins wear masks, you can give theirs to your Dwarves for much improved facial protection.
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thegoatgod_pan

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2011, 12:08:25 pm »

I think the issue here is not what kind of armor is being used, or if the throat is covered or whatever.  The issue is putting near-green recruits into candy armor and candy weapons and expecting it to count as lightsaber+5 against the goblins.  Goblin use crude weapons but they use them well, that's why they are goblins.  Inexperienced dwarves should not be equipped in addy--not only because they will die almost as swiftly as normally, but because the ones that survive will  lament and rage and maybe massacre the fort with said weapons, while ignoring hammerers with said armor.

1. Danger rooms are effective but cheap (aw man first winter already and only 7 out 10 soldiers are fully legendary, damn!)

2. Without danger rooms a military is something to cultivate and develops, avoid certain fights and attack from a certain angle in others-- a truly well-trained soldier can devastate whole sieges, but the same soldier shot and killed is difficult to replace. It is emphatically not the same attitude of "cannon fodder" most r.t.s games cultivate to an extent.

3.  Adamantine is not a super metal, or a magic metal or an auto edge in combat--it's just really sharp and really light metal. To use blue weapons and armor dwarves need to know how to use the regular kind first, and worst, addy brings more goblins early, due to the value, and as mentioned above, makes temper tantrums into bloodbaths, again early on

4. always wear 3-4 shields
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 12:46:00 pm by thegoatgod_pan »
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nordak

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2011, 05:14:23 pm »

My training pairs seem to train so slow... 3 years active and barely have any weapons skills.... yes they all have weapons... live prisoners still seem to top sparring partners.

Edit:
Although... Dodge and Armour user are up to master lvls.  I currently have 1 squad of Infantry at the main gate, and 4 2 man training squads inside the barracks.  The ones who see live combat (Gargoyals, Harpies, and occasional zombie) are faring far better with weapon skills/fighter/striker/wrestling than those who are left on train in the 2 man squads
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 05:21:48 pm by nordak »
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Blurk

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2011, 09:30:09 am »

Chainmail does protect the throat. Breastplates don't. You should be giving your soldiers both, anyways.

Also, if you're lucky and your goblins wear masks, you can give theirs to your Dwarves for much improved facial protection.
i am a noob, how do i get them to equip both?
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Teach

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2011, 02:08:13 pm »

I think the issue here is not what kind of armor is being used, or if the throat is covered or whatever.  The issue is putting near-green recruits into candy armor and candy weapons and expecting it to count as lightsaber+5 against the goblins.  Goblin use crude weapons but they use them well, that's why they are goblins.  Inexperienced dwarves should not be equipped in addy--not only because they will die almost as swiftly as normally, but because the ones that survive will  lament and rage and maybe massacre the fort with said weapons, while ignoring hammerers with said armor.

1. Danger rooms are effective but cheap (aw man first winter already and only 7 out 10 soldiers are fully legendary, damn!)

2. Without danger rooms a military is something to cultivate and develops, avoid certain fights and attack from a certain angle in others-- a truly well-trained soldier can devastate whole sieges, but the same soldier shot and killed is difficult to replace. It is emphatically not the same attitude of "cannon fodder" most r.t.s games cultivate to an extent.

3.  Adamantine is not a super metal, or a magic metal or an auto edge in combat--it's just really sharp and really light metal. To use blue weapons and armor dwarves need to know how to use the regular kind first, and worst, addy brings more goblins early, due to the value, and as mentioned above, makes temper tantrums into bloodbaths, again early on

4. always wear 3-4 shields

Wrong in certain aspects.  I don't think you understand quite how materials/skill works in DF.  Inexperienced addy armored dwarves WON'T die almost as quick as those without addy.  In fact this statement could not be further from the truth.   If you send out a dwarf in addy even if he has no dodging he can typically survive ridiculous situations.

 An example of addy's strength is that in 10 tests of 1 unskilled Dorf (full addy armor only no supplementary leather clothing, weapon, or shield) VS. 20 Gobs in full iron+ grandmaster everything the dwarf manages to survive long enough to go from no skill to legendary and punch all the gobs to death. 
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Sutremaine

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Re: My military are just expensive pincushions?
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2011, 11:11:24 pm »

Also to note is that Armor User trains up very important combat-related attributes; namely Strength, Toughness, Endurance, Willpower and Kinesthetic Sense (though it might not show up in arena).
It does if you take control of the creature and examine its stat like you're in Adventure Mode.
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Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.
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