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[scriver]

To have vs. to be?

I dunno, man, I really pay attention that sort of thing.  Similarly, in arguments, the difference between "you are stupid" and "you are being stupid."  Maybe that clarifies?

But we only differentiate between those two statements because, well, we have two statements (and besides, "YABS" is pretty much just "you are stupid" wrapped up in a more polite manner, at least as far as I'm aware). So, the original question, if the French is actually different, remains. Are it actually making a point by saying it that way, or is it just the way the phrase happen to fall? Directly translating it into English might yield a "YABS-like" turn of phrase, but is that really the intent of the original statement? Though I can't use Swedish as an example any longer (I realised that the Swedish actually say "He has wrong(s)" when translated directly - curse that Anglicisation of my mind, and it's resulting Translation Convention!), but as I realise I might have come of as needlessly contrarian due to my point being unclear in my first post, I'll restate the original message: As I understood it, you proposed this French phrase as an example of "language affecting how French view other people (and their opinions)". What I wanted to say (yes, I realise I never made much or any attempt to show it, unfortunately that happens quite often when I discuss something - I mean, my thoughts are completely clear to me! Why can't other people hear them?) is that I think how people view other peoples ability to change their viewpoints (making their "incorrectness" "correct") is not a trait influenced by language, but an inherent part of their personality, and thus will change on an individual basis, regardless of how you form the sentence that tell people they are/has wrongs.

I'm sorry if I'm still being unclear. I really do have a hard time expressing myself (correctly) these days, and it feels as most things I write come out as dizzy ramblings. Though maybe that would be more suited for the Sad Thread rather than this one.

[Vector]

Ah, well, the OP asked how multi-lingualism affected forum members, and all I have is the one experience.  *shrug*  I never said I was speaking for the French, I'm speaking for me.

And also, "You are being stupid" is very different from "you are stupid."  One instance of stupidity vs. an entire existence of stupidity is... yeah, that's different, and people take it differently because it means something different.  Reducing it to "it's more polite" is a bit too reductionist for my tastes, since it kind of assumes that the constructions for politeness are completely arbitrary in terms of grammar and diction.

[Il Palazzo]

Regarding Lera Boroditsky of the opening study, there's a video of her talking about the subject on fora.tv.

Myself, I think she's right.
From my experience with Anglophones and my native folk(Poles), the English speaking people tend to be more precise in their speech, while the Poles like to presume, to leave things to be guessed by the receipent. It's quite visible during reading comprehension classes at my university. When you get a Pole to read an English text, and answer some questions related to it - the reader will almost invariably go ahead and spin his own tale, looking for a subtext that he expects to be there, presuming all sorts of things. The habit of using exact statements, and taking the text somewhat more at the face value is a skill that actually has to be learned.
Note that I'm not denying here the ability of English to use metaphors, hyperboles and other stylistic devices, I'm saying that there is somewhat more vagueness to communication in Polish, than in English.
I'm not sure where this comes from, perhaps it's the inflection, a likely culprit, being one of the major differences between those two languages.

Also, a lot of people I know, myself included, act differently when using different languages. I'm a more of an introverted guy when speaking Polish, and much more open and assertive when using English.

edit: grammar

[Lysabild]

I have many experiences where I can't describe the same things in english or danish, so I often have to mix the two. It's like, having two languages makes me better able to express myself since if one language lacks a word, the other doesn't. Sadly, most people outside Denmark don't speak danish, which then feels handicapping. An example I ran into yesterday, Svie, A kind of pain that I could only find translated to "pain", however in danish it's a quite certain kind of pain. And that I would say changes the reality somewhat between the two languages.

So honestly, yes. I think so.

[de5me7]

i was thinking about something similar to this recently as i was learning some basic french. In English we say I am hungry. In French, Ja'i Faim, which is I have hunger i think, and in German, Ich habe hunger, i have hunger, and my friend tells me the Arabic would literally translate to I am close to hunger.

These are definitly in terms of linguistics philosophically different. The english is to talk about a state of existence, the french and german is to possess, and the Arabic is relational.

but all of them have the same impulse in their stomach. Whether the philosophical differences are the same as a basic understanding/view of personal state is a different matter, and im not sure of the answer.


This article being written in the Stanford Magazine, about a stanford academic is abit self appreciating using terms like "breakthrough" work. Most internal publication within universities is essentially marketing, and this article reaks of it. Id be interested to see what her 'evidence' is, and how rigorous it is. To say there is a fundamental difference in someones mental processing based on the language they speak seems abit far fetched to me. What about multilinguals? And how much of it is language rather than culture, or genetics? Discerning these would be tough to proove.

[Il Palazzo]

What about multilinguals? And how much of it is language rather than culture, or genetics? Discerning these would be tough to proove.

It is, to an extent, addressed in that video I linked to earlier:

http://fora.tv/2010/10/26/Lera_Boroditsky_How_Language_Shapes_Thought#fullprogram

[Vector]

Oh, and in Russian you say "I want to eat."  In Japanese, you say "my stomach is empty."

Pretty cool, huh?

[Il Palazzo]

There's a lot of papers on the subject by L.Boroditsky on Google Scholar, if anybody's interested in assessing the actual data:
http://scholar.google.pl/scholar?hl=pl&q=lera+boroditsky&btnG=Szukaj&lr=&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

A more general introduction to the idea can be found, as usual, on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity