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[Jeoshua]

I'm trying to make a world with 1000 years of history, no population or site caps, and yet NOT have humans take over every square inch of land they can get their grubby little hands on.  So far I've tried the following:

Extended baby/child stage: Under the assumption that creatures who are not yet adults cannot breed, I attempted to make human children turn into the toddler stage at age 3, and only become seen as adults at age 15.  This has seemingly no effect in worldgen, and unless handled carefully can lead to cities overrun with children.  They are smaller and easier to kill, however, so in a high megabeast environment, it does seem to cut down on the growth a little bit.

"Sterile" castes: Female for all purposes except for a [LITTERSIZE:0:0] token.  Presumably these frigid women, whom I have making up 10% of the female population, should get married normally to otherwise fertile males, lowering the population count somewhat.  It doesn't seem to have any effect on the humans' eventual domination of the world.  I do, however, like this idea.  Not everyone is a breeder.  Some people might be gay, others genetically sterile, and still others simply uninterested in having children.

The biggest problem with the sterile castes is that they are considered a separate gender, so I can't make sterile males.  [MALE] implies impregnation.  There is no [LITTERSIZE] equivalent tag to make them not generate babyspores.  And they're called "it" which I don't like on anything except the elves (who are pretty androgynous in my imagination)

Lower max civ sizes: Doesn't seem to work at all past the initial generation of the civ, since civs will still accept immigrants into their populations and ignore this cap.  I am not sure where those immigrants are coming from, but in Legends mode they report as "Human" in all ways except birth (which I can't find listed anywhere... spontaneously generated?).

Limited Biomes: Doesn't work how I want it to at all.  Civs will still use up every available inch of space surrounding their cities, up to the point that they do not support the next biome over.  I did find out something interesting, in that an entity with

[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_DESERT:3]

is actually less likely to spread than one with

[BIOME_SUPPORT:DESERT_SAND:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:DESERT_ROCK:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:DESERT_BADLAND:1]

Am I missing anything here?  I'd like to be able to keep the artificial population caps off and be able to generate an organic, living world with 1000 years of history.

Oh, I've also tried changing the volcanism settings just in case, so "MAGMA" is not a proper answer

[Jeoshua]

To be a bit more specific.  I'd like to be able to run worldgen for extended periods of time and have civs end up EXISTING in the world, not spreading outward endlessly... especially elves, they don't seem like the "world spanning empire" type anyways... sons of bastards don't even have cities.

[Vorthon]

Dude, use the edit button.

Also, this entity tag seems useful:

   [MAX_POP_NUMBER:10000]

Try replacing 10000 with something smaller. For !!SCIENCE!!.

[Jeoshua]

I've replaced it with [MAX_POP_NUMBER:1] before and still I get full cities.  In that case, I assume it was because the entity file was for the Wizards... and let's just say that being a member of that entity gave you a LOT of reactions to work with...  But there was still only 1 wizard at any time.  Once he died a new one seemed to pop out of the woodwork, ex nihilo.

Ergo facto, I don't use Wizards anymore.  Humans are nothing compared to those sprawlers.

Maybe a partial of the raws I'm working with.  Only what looks somewhat related...

With comments:
entity_default

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[ENTITY:PLAINS]

Blah blah blah, weapons, armor, tools and then...

[DEFAULT_SITE_TYPE:CITY]
[LIKES_SITE:CITY] Took out TREE_CITY, stop being elf-lovers, humies...
[TOLERATES_SITE:CITY]
[TOLERATES_SITE:TREE_CITY]
[TOLERATES_SITE:DARK_FORTRESS]

Here's the interesting part:

[START_BIOME:ANY_GRASSLAND]
[START_BIOME:ANY_OCEAN]
[START_BIOME:ANY_RIVER]
[START_BIOME:ANY_SHRUBLAND]
[START_BIOME:ANY_SAVANNA]

The ocean biome places their initial city over water, on the beach, as if they
have landed there and spread outward. Then they spread along the beaches.

I have not explored these areas in Adventurer to tell you if they are
underwater... doesn't look like it on the overworld map tho.

[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_OCEAN:9]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_RIVER:6]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_GRASSLAND:5]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_SAVANNA:3]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_SHRUBLAND:4]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:TUNDRA:1]

This configuration below ends up giving me populations far in excess of 2000
per civ.  But theres nothing in here about sites except their sizes.  Too small
and they won't build towns.  Nobody wants that.

[MAX_STARTING_CIV_NUMBER:10]
[START_GROUP_NUMBER:2]
[MAX_POP_NUMBER:2000]
[MAX_SITE_POP_NUMBER:200]

Probably not related but worth a showing anyways.  I modded every race to
have specific religions.  Humans are very agrarian types.

[RELIGION:PANTHEON]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:AGRICULTURE]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:BEAUTY]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:COURAGE]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:CREATION]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:FERTILITY]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:HUNTING]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:LAWS]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:LUCK]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:MARRIAGE]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:OCEANS]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:REVELRY]
[RELIGION_SPHERE:TRAVELERS]

I think next in the name of !!SCIENCE!! these should be explored as a possible
way to limit, if not numbers, the spread.  If they don't know the area is there,
will they still grow there?

[WANDERER]
[BEAST_HUNTER]
[SCOUT]



creature_standard

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:HUMAN]

I removed the afformentioned neuter gender.  It worked but I can't stand
people being called an "it".... is there a way to set gender pronouns manually?

[CASTE:FEMALE]
[FEMALE]
[LITTERSIZE:0:2] This was an attempt... doesn't gibe
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] with this tag, I think.
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH:FACIAL_FEATURES:TEETH:RIBCAGE:FEMALEGEN_PROTECTED:2BREASTS_PROTECTED]

[CASTE:MALE]
[MALE]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH:FACIAL_FEATURES:TEETH:RIBCAGE:MALEGEN_PROTECTED]

Because little kids are still growing (note the puberty growth spurt...)

[BODY_SIZE:0:0:4000]
[BODY_SIZE:1:168:17500]
[BODY_SIZE:12:0:40000]
[BODY_SIZE:15:0:60000]
[BODY_SIZE:21:0:70000]

[MAXAGE:60:110]

Only adults can have kids, so making them adults at 18 (not 12) seems to slow
growth down a bit.  I don't dare set it lower since they also don't work when
they're not adults, but will still take the storekeeper job... unhelpful little brats!

[BABY:3]
[CHILD:18]



Update:
And now on a different computer, with a different creature seed, they don't spread hardly at all!

[D_E]

I believe the site/population changeover from a while back broke all the POP_NUMBER type tags.  It certainly broke the starting and maximum pop size tags.  Also, World gen no longer tracks marriage; as long as you have at least one female caste, new people will appear ex nihilio whenever the civ needs some.  I don't know if child age is tracked.

[Jeoshua]

Well as I stated above, the only Wizard creatures that existed when Is set the [MAX_POP_NUMBER] to 1 were a specific wizard, born only when the last one died for whatever reason.  In Legends mode they reported as Wizard in Civ, but in-game were actually Humans or whatever other creature from another entity that had decided they [LIKES_SITE:CITY].

These tags must be fixed! Jesus, without them we're all doomed to generate worlds that are less dynamic than they otherwise could be by severely limiting the (confirmed as working) worldgen caps.

[Tapeworm]

If you don't mind having very limited populations, I've had success with restricting them to lake biomes only. They will settle the surrounding tiles and stay there. Perhaps you could try limiting them to ocean, lake and river biomes, although I suspect that this would let them spread everywhere anyway.

[Jeoshua]

If you export a hydrology map, you'll see that except for sand deserts, rivers are just about everywhere in this game.  So yeah, they'll spread like that.  Honestly, now that I think of it, that's probably why they're going everywhere.  But the rivers also seem to contain them to a degree, if they're the most common biome that is supported by said entity.  On the other hand, if you make grasslands more common, they'll happily fill up every field and ignore the rivers until there is no more grassland to use up.

[D_E]

Well as I stated above, the only Wizard creatures that existed when Is set the [MAX_POP_NUMBER] to 1 were a specific wizard, born only when the last one died for whatever reason.  In Legends mode they reported as Wizard in Civ, but in-game were actually Humans or whatever other creature from another entity that had decided they [LIKES_SITE:CITY].

These tags must be fixed! Jesus, without them we're all doomed to generate worlds that are less dynamic than they otherwise could be by severely limiting the (confirmed as working) worldgen caps.

That's really neat behavior, actually.

I really don't know anything about the specific ways in which the tags are broken: I ran into the problem while trying to make unique creatures for the zelda mod, but ended up solving it using night creatures.  So I didn't experiment with the population tags hardly at all.

[Jeoshua]

I think Adventurers may be to blame for all this mess.

Code: [Select]

[SCOUT]
[WANDERER]
[BEAST_HUNTER]

These tags create adventurers.  They wander from place to place, in various ways.  Now, I have been struggling with the question of Kobolds like everyone else, and tried messing with their tags.  First, I removed the tags altogether.  Kobolds still died off year 4, and were never heard from again (except in Fortress Mode since their civs weren't registering as dead).

Next, I added in [SCOUT] and [WANDERER], then searched my sites_and_pops file and entries like this:

Code: [Select]

852: Gufuduklorsnin, "Gufuduklorsnin", camp
Owner: Gridifangin, kobolds
9 kobolds

Yet all kobolds in the caves had still died in year 4.  Where did these come from in the year 500? Ex Nihilio, come the adventurers.  Just like in Adventurer mode, they are created from whole cloth without reguards to the civ they come from.  They are outsiders, since Gridifangin - nor any of the other "owners" - are a known Kobold Cave anywhere in legends or the world, as far as I can tell.

The Wizards had these tags, too.

Once an adventurer settles down in a town somewhere, they can then begin to have children normally.  These Kobolds couldn't do that because the only cave that was still declared a Kobold Cave was inhabited by a Demon, and their tags said they only [LIKE_SITE:CAVE].  They didn't even [TOLERATE_SITE] anything else.