Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[WarttHog]

I realize many, many people have said many, many things about DF's UI.  I would like to offer a small suggestion for any future design:

The user should select a thing, then select what to do with it, not the other way around.

I want to be able to move the cursor somewhere decide whether to manipulate the unit, item, building, stockpile, designation, burrow, or ... whatever "i" stands for which has escaped me at this moment.  Most of my frustration with the UI is that I've hit a command, say q, moved the cursor from the middle of my giant map over to where I want to view a stockpile, then I've realized I really wanted k because I wanted to see the item in the stockpile.  So I hit ESC then k and my cursor's back in the middle of the screen again.    The point is, the Command -> Target paradigm is so 1980.  Modern UIs follow the Stimulus -> Command paradigm.

[Rowanas]

I'm not hearing anything new or interesting. I like it this way, because I know what I'm doing, when I initiate an action, rather than hoping I've picked the right item for the job. When I want a wall built, I rarely care what it's made of, I just want to build the wall.

[WarttHog]

A few things come to mind:

1) You know what you're doing, and there's definitely something to be said about UI backwards compatibility.  But ignoring the way it's always been done, I believe "target -> action" is more natural to the way humans think about life.  When you build a wall, you probably think, "You know what?  This place really needs a wall." instead of, "I really want to build a wall!  Now, where should I put it?"

2) I didn't mean to say anything about what the wall's made of.  I'm talking about having a persistent cursor that doesn't snap back to the middle of the screen every time you change commands.  You're more likely to want your next command to happen in the same place.  Why not choose the place first then decide what to do to it?

[Maklak]

I think presistent cursor, and easy switching among 'k', 'q', 'v', 't', and "just mooving screen around" modes has been suggested before. I would like it too.

Item->action it is implemented to some degree, for example when selecting items to be traded.
 
I easilly got used to thinking "I want a wall -> right over here -> made of gneiss". It seems quite natural. "I want a wall around my settlement, where should I put it to keep goblins away?" is natural too, when designing a defence.

There are a lot of interface suggestions in this http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34949.0 thread. Maybe you can add something there.

[robolee]

Honestly what you're saying sounds backwards to me, and not just in terms of DF, in every game I can think of you place a building or wall with something like "Build"->"Wall". I think the only problem with DF in terms of building a wall is that wall is nested in another category (would be cool to be able to search through a menu and it's sub menus though, or if it reorganized depending on how often you do something).

[WarttHog]

@Maklak: Thanks for the link.  My searches kept turning up long-forgotten threads.  Maybe I need to level up my searching.    Glancing at it now though, 15 pages?  Sheesh, suggesting things may not be worth the hours it'll take to research enough.  Maybe I'll just dream to myself.  :-/

I would say selecting items to trade is a good example of what needs to change.  You have to go to the trade depot and select items to bring.  You can see how far away they are but not which stockpile they're organized into or anything.  Wouldn't it make more sense (and I know it's been suggested) to have a trade flag on items so that you express your intent to trade when you're actually stumbling over it on the map?  I see the pile of tables sitting around and I think, "I should get rid of some of these".  Maybe it's just me.

"I want a wall around my settlement" is a good argument because that's a task without a real target location or object.  However, I'd still probably think of it along the lines of, "Wow, this place on the map I'm looking at looks really vulnerable.  I should have a wall here."

Of course I can get used to the current rules.  I mean, we all got used to qwerty keyboards.  I'm just saying that if you're designing again from scratch, it'd be better to go with the GUI principle of working on what you can see instead of the console principle of forming your command in your mind then translating it to the computer's obscure language.

@robolee: Yes and no.  If you're playing WarCraft, then sure you click Build -> Farm and place it, but since you're using a mouse, your attention never really leaves your target zone.  It's not like you look at a full-screen menu and click a farm then scroll around your map figuring out where to place it.  A better example would be attacking.  You select your dudes and either click attack and click an enemy or you right-click on the enemy directly.  In these cases, you first focus on the object then the subject of the command, then issue the command.  You don't choose a global attack command, pick the attacker, then pick the target.  That's just silly.

Anyway, sorry for rehashing this stuff again.  I'll probably go back to more playing and less suggesting.  You guys seem to have this under control. 

[Maklak]

Come to think of it, I'd like to be able to "this bed" -> encrust -> "this gem" rather than micromanage stockpiles, or hope I get lucky, and they don't encrust bag or mechanism or something.

[Max White]

You know what you're doing, and there's definitely something to be said about UI backwards compatibility.  But ignoring the way it's always been done, I believe "target -> action" is more natural to the way humans think about life.  When you build a wall, you probably think, "You know what?  This place really needs a wall." instead of, "I really want to build a wall!  Now, where should I put it?"

*Playing sims*
Build bed.
This bed.
Bed goes here.

*Playing starcraft*
Build structure.
This Nexus.
Nexus goes here.

*Playing roller coaster tycoon*
Build ride.
This ride.
Ride goes here.

Honestly, I could go on for a very, very long time. You select wall, then you place it. That's how it goes, and how it always goes.

[Rowanas]

Give the strange avatar boy a medal!

[Silverionmox]

We'll probably need both. Sometimes you see an item, and then want to do something with it; at other times you have a plan to build a fortification in a general location and only decide where exactly when you already have Fortification selected and ready to go.

The first option can be put in the loo(k) menu though (which will be expanded with the (v)iew or (q)uery menus sooner or later). It's like we can do now with indicating that a particular item has to be smelted or dumped. We shouldn't get three screens deep into the item's properties to do so though: we should be able to give the melt command directly when we have selected an item.

[WarttHog]

@Silverionmox: Great!  That's all I was asking for.

@Max: I don't want to get too far into an off-topic argument but I feel the need to point out that I'm not an idiot. 
A) I'm trying to think of what's best, not what's currently done.  Just because every other game out there does it one way doesn't mean it's the best.
B) Building is only one command but it seems to be the one everyone's getting hung up on.  Maybe I should have been more creative in my examples.  I haven't played the sims much and haven't played roller coaster tycoon in forever, but in StarCraft you don't choose "View Unit Health -> Scroll through giant list of units" or "Siege Mode -> Select tank".  In dwarf fortress I want to see the health summary page for just the hospital I'm looking at.  In DF you can give build orders at a workshop which is often your target of interest but if your target is the thing you want to build, you can issue the order via the manager.  That's a great example of what I'm asking for!
C) Even with building a Nexus, you scroll to the area of the map you want to build which is really your target, then you select your probe which is your sub-target, THEN you give the build command, then you finalize the details of the exact placement.  But in Dwarf Fortress, my cursor jumps out of the room I was in.  I want to be able to designate a stockpile, then change the number of max bins it'll have without going back and forth through the menus and resetting the cursor.
D) Don't get too hung up on location.  I would argue that setting training and sleep locations is backwards in DF.  I'd like to name a barracks when I'm looking at it and thinking about it, then go into the military menu, select a squad or two and tell them to live at the "Cavern Entrance" barracks.  That makes more sense to me than moving the cursor over every archery target and assigning appropriate squads.  Maybe that's just me.

[aepurniet]

...
This place really needs a wall." instead of, "I really want to build a wall!  Now, where should I put it?"
...

i think the wall is a bad example. but i totally agree with you when it comes to inspecting items / units / workshops with the 'k' vs 'v' vs 't' keys.

persistent cursor would be nice.

[noob]

but i dont want to go through the interface 9001 times. build>constructions>wall>place>wall>place>wall>place is good for me. place>constructions>wall>place>constructions>wall>place>constructions> wall is longer.

[penco]

I think this is a good idea. The first time I played DF, I quit for several months because I couldn't figure out how to manipulate objects. There should be just one type of cursor, not an examine cursor, a building cursor, a unit cursor, a zone cursor, etc. I just want to click a building and then see what I can do with it.

The way it is now certainly works, but it is not at all user-friendly.

[Dutchling]

I think it should be possible in both ways, you can {b}uild a {c}hair somewhere, or you can sele{k}t* a chair and choose {b}build it somewhere

*yea I know...