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Author Topic: More Dangerous Elves  (Read 3822 times)

magistrate101

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2010, 02:51:22 pm »

On topid (i guess :3) You wish to make ELVES harder to kill?!?! Why, If you succeed The Glorious Elven Slaughter (It's a holiday >:D) will have to be canceled until our orbital magma cannons are complete! And that will take years! Just think of all the wiring that will have to be done to position them RIGHT on top of the Elven Forest Retreat! The slaughter will be complete, and there will be no more, and then we will have to slaughter lowly Troglodytes! Then humans! Then our weapons will be used upon the stars! (maybe if we aim JUST right we'll hit Armok!)

edit: w00t, 3rd page starter!

KhazâdAimênu

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2010, 05:56:21 pm »

On topid (i guess :3) You wish to make ELVES harder to kill?!?! Why, If you succeed The Glorious Elven Slaughter (It's a holiday >:D) will have to be canceled until our orbital magma cannons are complete! And that will take years! Just think of all the wiring that will have to be done to position them RIGHT on top of the Elven Forest Retreat! The slaughter will be complete, and there will be no more, and then we will have to slaughter lowly Troglodytes! Then humans! Then our weapons will be used upon the stars! (maybe if we aim JUST right we'll hit Armok!)

It's not that I don't enjoy killing elves, It's just that I don't find slaughtering the utterly defenseless creatures the 31.xx material and combat changes gave us to be particularly dwarfy. It's just too easy. It also doesn't make sense from a story perspective; if elves were really as ineffective and annoying as they are in fortress mode, they'd have been wiped out long ago. From a game perspective, I like the challenge of walking the line in an early fortress of antagonizing the elves just enough so that they bring you more animals, but not so much that they wipe out your fortress with a hail of armor-piercing arrows. Then later designing a fortress defense system around invaders with trapavoid and a fearsome ranged attack, but are weak (though fast) up close.

edit: w00t, 3rd page starter!

I think you must be using a different page numbering system from me...:-)
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magistrate101

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2010, 06:00:32 pm »

On topid (i guess :3) You wish to make ELVES harder to kill?!?! Why, If you succeed The Glorious Elven Slaughter (It's a holiday >:D) will have to be canceled until our orbital magma cannons are complete! And that will take years! Just think of all the wiring that will have to be done to position them RIGHT on top of the Elven Forest Retreat! The slaughter will be complete, and there will be no more, and then we will have to slaughter lowly Troglodytes! Then humans! Then our weapons will be used upon the stars! (maybe if we aim JUST right we'll hit Armok!)

It's not that I don't enjoy killing elves, It's just that I don't find slaughtering the utterly defenseless creatures the 31.xx material and combat changes gave us to be particularly dwarfy. It's just too easy. It also doesn't make sense from a story perspective; if elves were really as ineffective and annoying as they are in fortress mode, they'd have been wiped out long ago. From a game perspective, I like the challenge of walking the line in an early fortress of antagonizing the elves just enough so that they bring you more animals, but not so much that they wipe out your fortress with a hail of armor-piercing arrows. Then later designing a fortress defense system around invaders with trapavoid and a fearsome ranged attack, but are weak (though fast) up close.

edit: w00t, 3rd page starter!

I think you must be using a different page numbering system from me...:-)

If I had a tool that let me place pets (place the cursor, go to program, select pet, and spawn it) I'd have a maze filled with BogeyMen for the elves to play in ;) Plus, They aren't all that defenseless... i was in adventure mode, and killed the druid, all the elves attacked me at once, 20/25 of them punched my brain ( :O ) and the rest were knockin off my limbs D:

KhazâdAimênu

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2010, 06:17:44 pm »

It's true, elven wrestlers are not ineffective - in my tests they seem to be more effective without melee weapons than they are with. They still don't stand much of a chance against a well-armored opponent, though. With the modifications I've got running now, four-on-four matches between ironclad axedwarves and wood-clad elven wrestlers modded for additional speed and agility typically result in four dead elves, one dead dwarf, and a scattering of injuries in the rest of the dwarves. That's about where I want it. On the other hand, four bow-elves with anti-armor arrows at fifteen squares from four ironclad axedwarves results in four dead axedwarves. I think I may tone down elvish speed a little.
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Malaclypse

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2010, 09:41:05 pm »

One way (I think- this is just an Idea; haven't tested it out) of ensuring that the elves have access to their new buffed wood materials without altering the vanilla trees and the wood they produce (so as to keep things nice and tidy and make this entirely elf-exclusive) and without eliminating the variety of woods (they wouldn't be elves if they didn't have all sorts of different types of wood products that are essentially identical!) is this:

1. Make a copy of the wood material template in the material_template_default raw, and rename it. I suggest calling it something like 'ELVEN_WOOD_TEMPLATE'. This is the template for the wood the elves will be using, so make whatever changes to the stats on it that you'd like to show up in their weapons and armor.

2. Create duplicate entries of all of the trees/wood producing plants in the plant_standard raw file.

3. Stick something like 'ELVEN_' in front of the tree in the entry tag thing for all the duplicate entries- ie, [PLANT:ALDER] becomes [PLANT:ELVEN_ALDER]

4. Change this tag-
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:WOOD:WOOD_TEMPLATE]
to
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:WOOD:ELVEN_WOOD_TEMPLATE]
in order to make the new tree entries use the elven wood material for their logs.

5. If you want, you could change these tags so the new materials are referred to differently in the game:
      [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:alder]
      [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:alder]
might become
      [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:elven alder]
      [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:elven alder]
so that things made of them show up as being made of, in this case, elven alder [wood?]. (Oh, another idea, a bit unrelated though: The new bows for the elves could be recurve, composite, or longbows, in order to distinguish them from normal bows [and in order to make the new buffed bows elf-exclusive])

6. Remove all of the biome and environment tags from the new plant entries. We don't want these to actually grow anywhere.

7. Make any changes you want to the density values for the trees that don't use the default values- or just remove them, or whatever. Your choice.

8. Make a new custom reaction for every type of wood to convert logs of the standard variety into logs of the new elven version. Maybe set the reactions to take place at the crafting workshop, and use the woodcrafting skill? Dunno. Seems simplest to me. I guess you could create a new building type, but I'm not sure you could then ensure that they'd actually make that building. Anyhow, go enable those reactions for the elves in the entities_default raw.
 
9. This is when the question of getting them to use the new reactions to convert their normal lumber into the new elven lumber. I have two ideas for how to do this. My bet is that if you either skew the ratio of old logs in to new logs out, so you've got a net gain in the number of logs, they'd use the reaction. You could go for a simple doubling in the number of logs, or try making it take several normal logs to produce a slightly larger number of elven logs. On the other hand, you could try changing the [MATERIAL_VALUE:1] tag on the new elven wood template in material_templates to something greater than one. I am fairly certain that changing that to anything higher than 1 will ensure that they'll use the reactions. I mean, it does make all their stuff twice as valuable, after all. That could have repercussions when it comes to trading with the elves in fortress mode, though. You'll probably end up having to spend more on their wood products/lumber. But meh, we all know the elves are greedy little bastards anyways.


Quick question: how do create the little code boxes on here?
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KhazâdAimênu

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2010, 12:22:00 am »

Well, I just came back from a fortress that I finally embarked in a nonbugged spot at war with elves, and got my first ambush (two squads - all elite archers! Hurrah! At least some of my code works). They brought a nice mixture of regular arrows and my modded whip arrows, but unfortunately they did not bring anthing made of my modded wood. Result:

  • Absolute murder of the human caravan that happened to arive at the same time, since neither of the guards bothered to wear metal armor except for helms.
  • Elves were completely unable to harm my bronze-clad axedwarf.
  • Said axedwarf failed to kill any of them (though he got the leader's war jaguar), because I still hadn't gotten around to fixing their speed to be slightly more reasonable. Watching them "dodge" away 10 spaces was hilarious, though. He managed to slash open the cheek of one and the hand of another, at least.

So, I apparently can't manage reaction modding properly. One concern I had was that since elves don't build buildings at all, what workshop should I tie the reaction to? Here's the stuff I used:

Modded wood:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Production Reaction:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Custom Workshop:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also added the relevant entity permissions to elves:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One way (I think- this is just an Idea; haven't tested it out) of ensuring that the elves have access to their new buffed wood materials without altering the vanilla trees and the wood they produce (so as to keep things nice and tidy and make this entirely elf-exclusive) and without eliminating the variety of woods (they wouldn't be elves if they didn't have all sorts of different types of wood products that are essentially identical!) is this:

Spoiler: edited for brevity (click to show/hide)

I'm perfectly happy giving them one special wood (flavortext: they take normal wood and do magical nature-laminating to it to make it super-hard and super-dense), but I just want them to make the damn stuff without putting an actual growing elfwood tree into  the game. However, I apparently am doing something wrong with the modded reaction, because they didn't use it at all, much less make all of their arrows out of it. If increasing the value would help them do so once it is working, I'm happy to - the elves should charge more for it, it's a heck of a lot more deadly than normal wood, plus they had to do some reaction to make it.

Quick question: how do create the little code boxes on here?
Either by pressing the button with the "#" on it in the text box controls, or by typing {code}{/code}, replacing the curly brackets with square brackets and putting your text in between.
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Aarik

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2010, 02:03:02 am »

I gave my elves

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Humans and Dwarves got some boosts as well, but the elves are nigh on untouchable.

Except by Humans, who I made Badass super soldiers, well, the men anyway. Dwarven men got some natural fighting skills, but not much, they mostly focus on making awesome shit.

I also made some Ironwood and Spellwood that just has the stats from iron and steel copy and pasted into it.

Seems to work in arena, but I got so much modding to do before i start testing it in a genned world.
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KhazâdAimênu

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2010, 02:35:58 am »

I gave my elves...
 
[NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:20]
              ...
[NATURAL_SKILL:BOW:20]

I didn't realize skills even went up to 20. Not a lot of blocks or misses there. I've set mine to 6 at the moment, with a slightly boosted skill learn rate.

I also made some Ironwood and Spellwood that just has the stats from iron and steel copy and pasted into it.

Seems to work in arena, but I got so much modding to do before i start testing it in a genned world.

But the big question is, then, how are you going to get the elves to use it? And will you just decide not to use it yourself, so as not to break the fantasy world? And if you're giving your elves steel and iron equivalents, won't their arrows just tear humans apart, badass stats or no?
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Aarik

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2010, 02:44:16 am »

I'm relatively certain Humans can make Steel and such now.

And skills go up to 255 according to some people. 20 is Legendary +5. Get it, Elves are 'legendary' for their ranged technique. Lol pun.

And making elves and only elves use the wood is one of the things I need to set. The trees don't have biome's at the moment so no one would be able to use them in a world unless it doesn't check resource allocation.

I was hoping to just mooch yours if you come up with one, but if I come up with something I'll post it.
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Malaclypse

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2010, 03:53:05 am »

I'm pretty certain that they will use the reaction to create the uberwood if the uberwood is worth more- my theory is that the program tries to maximize the value of the final product for any given base material, with a certain amount of randomness thrown in, along with something that ensures that they still produce some variation in their goods rather than just pumping out one thing and one thing only. So, my thinking is that bumping up the value of the uberwood will result in them still using some normal wood, but using the uberwood for anywhere from, say. a fourth of their products, to maybe 90% or something. That's just speculation, though.

Part of the basis for my reasoning is the fact that the various large mods that are out there seem to work fine with regards to custom materials and such showing up in trade and in the non-player civs' equipment and such, so there has to be some sort of logic to what is produced that isn't hardcoded in a way that makes it only work with the vanilla stuff. That being the case (or seeming to be, at least), it makes sense for the basis for the computer's choice of materials/reactions/products/etc to be a function of what materials are available and what uses of them yield the greatest increase in wealth per unit of material. Since we're looking at a conversion of one material into another material of greater value that can be used in all the same ways as the original one, there is no real opportunity cost (aside from the time spent converting normal wood to uberwood, and I doubt that the game factors that in- worldgen doesn't calculate every single job performed, or it would take forever), so the computer would have no reason -not- to convert the wood, and at least one reason [given the assumption that creation of wealth is a factor] to do it.

On the other hand, it could just be pretty much entirely random, which would still mean that you'd end up with at least -some- usage of the uberwood, which is better than nothing.

*eyeshift* Sorry for being verbose. It's a habit.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 03:57:19 am by Malaclypse »
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Grimlocke

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2010, 08:14:13 am »

Well this is one forum where vebosity isnt minded that much. Still I dont think the resource and material system is all that complex right now, from what I have seen its all rather placeholdery. Which makes sense, with Toady now working on the actual trade and resource system. Once that is done it shouldnt be that hard to give elves their own fancy wood.

But for now, we seem to be stuck with a fairly random system. At least not for how civs choose their metals. Looking at humans reveals that material choice is all over the place, any weapon material gets used. Lots of weird silver and copper weapons and such.

Most likely this is due to humans recentelly gaining the metal_pref tag in the vanilla game. Previously they just used reaction product materials like bronze, pewters, etc.

Perhaps this could be used on Elves? Not sure how one could force them to still use wood for other stuff though...

Kinda curious about this now, ill unlease some science on this.

EDIT: unsatisfying yield... it seems that game doesnt even check if the woods have the WEAPON or ARMOR tag, but selects anything wooden at random.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:45:12 am by Grimlocke »
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I make Grimlocke's History & Realism Mods. Its got poleaxes, sturdy joints and bloomeries. Now compatible with DF Revised!

Malaclypse

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2010, 06:23:10 pm »

Perhaps if you remove the tags in the entity_default file that define what weapons and armors the elves can produce, then create custom reactions for the boyer workshop that yield the equivalent elven equipment with the uberwood as the material, that'd work. It's worth trying.
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TomiTapio

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Re: More Dangerous Elves
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2010, 03:09:46 am »

[NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:15]
makes them demigods, I say. Try 6 instead.

I have GOODWOOD_TEMPLATE in my Genesis tunings, see
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8967397/Gen18_TomiTapio_raw_objects_Dec9.zip

My Genesis Sylvan Elves have
   [NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:2] --just from growing up playing elf sports.
   [NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:4]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:4]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:6]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:2]

Ogres,
   [NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:6]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:5]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:6]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:2] clumsy kick
   [NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:4]
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 03:11:50 am by TomiTapio »
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==OldGenesis mod== by Deon & TomiTapio. Five wood classes, four leather classes. Nine enemy civs. So much fine-tuning.
47.05e release: http://dffd.bay12games.com/who.php?id=1538
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My Finnish language file: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14884
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