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Author Topic: Bogeymen  (Read 4768 times)

minno

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 10:54:50 am »

they are nigh unkillable unless you are a dwarf and lucky. the real problem in killing them is their nigh invincibility. they will dodge nearly everything you throw. however, a martial trance nearly removes this obstacle. i murdered at least 10 of them one night. as soon as they sprung on me, i hit a martial trance. walked through them like they weren't there with my axe.

Are you playing "clear" DF? I'm asking because they are a lot easier to deal with in genesis mod (at least from my pov).

The main problem in "clear" version is that, while weapons are more powerful, the tissues are a lot more "pain immue"/spill a lot less blood. In order to cause somebody to pass out from pain you have to basically break/cut out basically almost every part of the body, including internal organs. Also, blood loss is very small even from piercing heart, lung, or brain; so small that the creature can "heal" the bleeding during the battle. (It basically never happened for me that somebody died due to blood loss before I killed them). This, coupled with usually crazy high dodging makes boogeyman, like cikulisu said, almost unkillable - even occasional lucky shot doesn't seem to bother them at all, even if it is bone crush of internal organ pierce.

On the contrary, for example, in genesis cutting off one arm, crushing bone from one leg and cutting off one finger from the other arm was enough to make boogeyman pass out from pain & die to blood loss. Also, blood loss and the amount of pain have some crazy high values for key internal organs, so a piercing strike to a heart (for example) means basically "game over" for you (or your enemy), unlike the "clear" version, where a pierce to a heart doesn't seem to have any big effect on effectiveness of a enemy.

In Vanilla (unmodded) DF, it's actually almost certainly lethal to pierce the heart.  Also, bogeymen and night creatures appear to not feel pain or breathe, so crushing bones and stabbing lungs doesn't do anything.

Also, once you get decent fighting/weapon/defensive skills, it's pretty easy to run around and wait until you get either an easy opportunity to bite their lower body off (it almost always works) or a normal opportunity to destroy their heads.  They're not hard to kill for a very strong adventurer, but they're pretty much invincible against starting characters.  Stay inside at night.
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Chilton

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2010, 11:25:19 am »

The only way i can kill the cursed things is to kick them in the upper body - After 1-4 hits, i can finish them.
I still sleep inside though, when i can.
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I Like To Think Of Myself As An Artist - I Create Masterpieces With My Tools Of Trade.

Urist McUristy

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2010, 12:02:36 pm »

they are nigh unkillable unless you are a dwarf and lucky. the real problem in killing them is their nigh invincibility. they will dodge nearly everything you throw. however, a martial trance nearly removes this obstacle. i murdered at least 10 of them one night. as soon as they sprung on me, i hit a martial trance. walked through them like they weren't there with my axe.

Are you playing "clear" DF? I'm asking because they are a lot easier to deal with in genesis mod (at least from my pov).

The main problem in "clear" version is that, while weapons are more powerful, the tissues are a lot more "pain immue"/spill a lot less blood. In order to cause somebody to pass out from pain you have to basically break/cut out basically almost every part of the body, including internal organs. Also, blood loss is very small even from piercing heart, lung, or brain; so small that the creature can "heal" the bleeding during the battle. (It basically never happened for me that somebody died due to blood loss before I killed them). This, coupled with usually crazy high dodging makes boogeyman, like cikulisu said, almost unkillable - even occasional lucky shot doesn't seem to bother them at all, even if it is bone crush of internal organ pierce.

On the contrary, for example, in genesis cutting off one arm, crushing bone from one leg and cutting off one finger from the other arm was enough to make boogeyman pass out from pain & die to blood loss. Also, blood loss and the amount of pain have some crazy high values for key internal organs, so a piercing strike to a heart (for example) means basically "game over" for you (or your enemy), unlike the "clear" version, where a pierce to a heart doesn't seem to have any big effect on effectiveness of a enemy.
What are you smoking? Cause I want some. First of all, the term is "vanilla", not "clear". Secondly, the raws say otherwise, because genesis has lower values in PAIN_RECEPTORS for skin, fat, and muscle. That means that they are more "Pain Immune".
I can also kick someones hands in or take out their teeth to make them pass out, its not hard. Blood loss from piercing the heart is near 100% chance of death, and if you tear open a lung they might die from that, and definitely from both of them. The brain is also an instant-kill from what I have seen, and creatures cannot heal during battle, or if they do its very slow.  Bogeymen aren't a problem for people who have better characters, and its not hard to pin a bogey down and kill it. Just carry a peasant with you if you aren't good enough to fight them yet.
Now, about your points about genesis about bogeymen being easy and passing out from pain, guess what? Those creatures haven't been changed in the raws, they are the same as the "vanilla" version. Atleast make sure you know what your talking about bro.
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Knigel

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2010, 01:00:11 pm »

What are you smoking? Cause I want some. First of all, the term is "vanilla", not "clear".

Neither of those is an official term; just because more people call it "vanilla" doesn't make people who don't stupid.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2010, 01:40:42 pm »

Boogeymen are especially vulnerable in the head and lower body; practically any solid shot targeted there will kill them. It doesn't really matter what attack you use, but finishing them off with a boogeyman head clenched between your teeth is pretty satisfying.
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Urist McUristy

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 01:46:33 pm »

What are you smoking? Cause I want some. First of all, the term is "vanilla", not "clear".

Neither of those is an official term; just because more people call it "vanilla" doesn't make people who don't stupid.
Never said he was stupid, and why would you assume that I thought he was stupid?
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Rowanas

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2010, 04:32:55 pm »

Boogeymen are especially vulnerable in the head and lower body; practically any solid shot targeted there will kill them. It doesn't really matter what attack you use, but finishing them off with a boogeyman head clenched between your teeth is pretty satisfying.

Heh. Boogeyman. Beware their massive afro!

Bogeymen are easiest to take out with an axe. Whenever they attack, dance around. Eventually you'll get a head, upper body or lower body shot, so take it. Occasionally you just slice the buggers, but 3/5 times you'll see flying body parts.

Also, testing has revealed that if you can wound one and get behind it, grabbing the head with a hand and blinding it will make them stand still. Of course, if you've got an axe and shield you'll need to put the shield away, go around the beast, grab it and poke out both eyes while the other bogeymen attack.
Trying to grab it from in front will probably just get you a dodging bogeyman.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

celem

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2010, 05:33:29 pm »

The point with bogeymen being hard is just their innate dodge (9 iirc)
Ultimately they are an unarmed/unarmored critter with organs and therefore fodder.....you just gotta be good enough to land the shots.

If you kill all the bogeys without moving about much the cackling dies away, running while fighting is counterproductive unless heading for a village since they spawn infront of you all the time.  Ive had maybe 1 young character make it to town and another than ran till dawn.  All the rest got owned.

Interestingly, because monsters will always aim for the head of a KO'd foe and bogeys arnt armed, a regular iron helm allowed one of my humans to survive several blackouts with them whaling ineffectively on my hlm with their fists/feet/teeth (my only armor piece).  after lying on the deck for some 50 rounds a bogey with horns eventually got me.

Watch the horned ones...they will really ruin your day
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avari

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2010, 05:43:01 pm »

I was actually surprised to find that a reasonably experienced hero adventurer (about 40 kills) could kill bogeymen quite easily. My guy was a legendary fighter, master swordsman and proficient shield/armor user. Although they were much harder to hit than any other creature, every now and then a well-placed hit would land. The trick seemed to be running away from the pack* and hitting when only one was in range. I did have a +iron long sword+ and a full set of iron armor though, and I suspect that may have made all the difference.

After scavenging the iron gear it was difficult to find anything dangerous really. After clearing out a couple of castles I hiked to a distant goblin fortress looking for a challenge, only to find out that apparently they are not implemented at all (?) since there was absolutely nothing there.. *shrug*

*I didn't see any new bogeymen spawning even though I ran numerous screenlengths.
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 06:44:23 pm »

Yea, currently Forest Retreats, Mountainhomes and Dark Towers don't actually exist. The civs still act like they exist but there is no physical evidence of it.

Knigel

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2010, 07:37:45 pm »

Boogeymen are especially vulnerable in the head and lower body; practically any solid shot targeted there will kill them. It doesn't really matter what attack you use, but finishing them off with a boogeyman head clenched between your teeth is pretty satisfying.

Heh. Boogeyman. Beware their massive afro!

Bogeymen are easiest to take out with an axe. Whenever they attack, dance around. Eventually you'll get a head, upper body or lower body shot, so take it. Occasionally you just slice the buggers, but 3/5 times you'll see flying body parts.

Also, testing has revealed that if you can wound one and get behind it, grabbing the head with a hand and blinding it will make them stand still. Of course, if you've got an axe and shield you'll need to put the shield away, go around the beast, grab it and poke out both eyes while the other bogeymen attack.
Trying to grab it from in front will probably just get you a dodging bogeyman.

The back? There's no such thing as facing direction in Dwarf Fotress.
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3

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2010, 07:42:17 pm »

On the converse, there is.
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celem

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2010, 08:13:49 pm »

true, this is a recent addition though right?  i think its just since the new combat system that ive seen attack messages state 'from the side' or 'from the back'
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Marksdwarf Pillboxes
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minno

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2010, 08:16:35 pm »

Yeah, it seems to be related to which enemy the person last attacked.  There doesn't seem to be a facing when a person is idle.
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3

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Re: Bogeymen
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2010, 08:29:15 pm »

true, this is a recent addition though right?  i think its just since the new combat system that ive seen attack messages state 'from the side' or 'from the back'

It existed in 28.40, of that I'm sure.
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