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[Juason]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.  As it stands a 5x legendary champion whatever can get KO'd by any old crossbow shooting goblin.  There's balancing yet to be done.  I love the skills and how they are raised and function as a whole.  As was mentioned earlier, I think goblins need to get more powerful, and semimegabeast hoardes should periodically come knocking.  

What good is a 5x champion when they seak into your fortress through the rear and off all your brewers?  :cackle:

[Aquillion]

Balance is simply not part of the game yet.  At all.

It's silly to talk about balance for dwarves when we haven't even gotten the complete the army arc yet, or more detailed behavior for megabeasts, or magic (which, recall, dwarves will usually be on the receiving end of.)  Those are the things dwarves need to be balanced against.

Imagine if Toady had wasted time balancing the 2d version (as many people in the forum suggested back then.)  It would have all gone to waste, since things changed so completely.  The game still isn't done in several vital ways, so it can still change and negate any balance suggestions we're making here...  balance should simply not be a consideration except in the most absolutely broad areas (e.g. "don't give dwarves the ability to shoot lasers from their eyes.")

Even aside from that, though, I strongly and completely disagree with all the suggestions made here.  Contrary to what is suggested, I do not think these things would actually make the game harder, overall; in fact, the importance of 'high-value' dwarves is what lends much of the game's difficulty right now.  Whether they use super-dwarves or not, fortresses rarely die to external attackers (I almost never depend on my dwarves to fight); but they do fall apart when a high-value dwarf cracks.

The game is all about epic works of art and legendary warriors.  It's central to what Dwarf Fortress is.  I would say that having legendary dwarves in the game world (people who can accomplish great things and, conversely, destroy your whole fortress in a tantrum) is, in fact, more important than having a balanced game, because without them it just isn't Dwarf Fortress anymore.

(I also think that the original post completely misses what is unbalancing about the game at the moment.  The strength of individual dwarves isn't a big deal; the ease with which food can be produced and enemy forces totally negated by fortress design are big balance issues.  I simply do not see the points this thread is focusing on as being major balance concerns compared to food, fortress design, and things like that.)

[ May 30, 2008: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Techhead]

You want something harder?
How about a magma-dwelling megabeast that can melt through any walls (Not ceilings) adjacent to it, including constructed ones.
No, it is not harmed by water, cave-ins, or non-magma-safe material weapons.
It also leaves 1/7 magma in a trail behind it.

[Neonivek]

quote: It also leaves 1/7 magma in a trail behind it

At this point I picture a Giant Magma Slug

[gurra_geban]

quote: You want something harder?

Ok, maybe i didn't make myself clear, but this suggestion isn't about balancing the game or making it harder! And also, the changes i suggest is not really only about the combat mechanisms in df, but mostly for the civilian dwarves.

If implemented, this will give dwarves more depth, make them unique and add more realism to the game.

As the game is now it isn't even something special to have legendary dwarves in any profession.

[Neonivek]

Yes but it is such an artificial way to make them special where personality and accomplishments should truely be what is filling it in.

It also causes such insane and stupid problems too such as Multi-skilled dwarves becoming useless.

[Psyco Jelly]

I would not like dwarf fortress if it didn't involve Beowulfian feats of strength and agility.

Uber = fun

[MuonDecay]

I think the biggest problem here is the ability to become superdwarvenly agile by chatting with Urist Layabout on the subject of how much you love camel cheese.

What... the... hell...

[Yammo]

My 2 cents.

Nerf skills:
NO! (I love my 3xLegendary-miner-crafter-engraver).

XP per time-unit spent:
YES!
Tunneling through dirt should not be as rewarding as tunneling through granite.

Further more:
Perhaps a rising XP demand per level instead of a linear one.

DF is the best game I've played for... hmm... since Pong.
(And I did actually play the original Pong-console... back in the days  )

[Solara]

quote:Originally posted by MuonDecay:
<STRONG>I think the biggest problem here is the ability to become superdwarvenly agile by chatting with Urist Layabout on the subject of how much you love camel cheese.

What... the... hell...</STRONG>

That's what I was fixing to post. If stat gains were unlinked from conversational skills you'd have to actually train a dwarf in a profession, as it is now all you need to make someone superdwarvenly tough and strong and agile is a meeting hall stuffed with a bunch of unemployed losers.    

Nerf them, not the dwarves we put actual effort into training.

[MuonDecay]

quote:Originally posted by Solara:
<STRONG>

That's what I was fixing to post. If stat gains were unlinked from conversational skills you'd have to actually train a dwarf in a profession, as it is now all you need to make someone superdwarvenly tough and strong and agile is a meeting hall stuffed with a bunch of unemployed losers.    

Nerf them, not the dwarves we put actual effort into training.</STRONG>

Then I emphatically agree.

Stat bonuses should be from working and training, getting them from social skills is too easy and doesn't seem to have a logical reason to occur.

[Calessa Lynn Orphiel]

Building off of that -- I'm not certain, but I think a large part of the reason for conversational abilities giving stat boosts was simply to give stat boosts to haulers.  Why not add in a skill for hauling tasks that is purely fluff, doesn't actually affect hauling, but can actually get you stat gains?

Would seem to be a better way to resolve the issue.

Example:

Hauler takes 100 hauling jobs, is bumped up from Dabbling to Hauler -- No actual effect on hauling ability, but increases Strength, allowing the dwarf to carry heavier objects at higher speeds and thus improving hauling ability anyway -- and so on.

[Techhead]

Well, if a hauling skill is implemented, then each level could decrease the effect of the hauled objects weight on your speed.
It would not help you carry around heavy clothing, weapons, ammo, or other items, only hauled items.

[mickel]

Actually, a hauling skill that makes the dorf better at hauling would be nice. We have legendary miners who can mine through solid rock at the same pace as a dwarf runs down a corridor, why not have haulers who can lift impossible amounts?

Or rather, why not have haulers that can lift impossible amounts instead of letting everyone do it? It's like everyone is a legendary hauler from birth now.

Social skills increasing stats make a lot of sense to me, but it would be stats like intelligence, charisma, wisdom, wits, knowledge and other purely mental stats. Perhaps agility too if the social interaction involves dancing?  

Strength is a little more far fetched... Toughness? Well... Maybe it's all the drinking?