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[Alexhans]

All names have been changed to protect the users:

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[03:17] <Simba> I took C++ fall 2008
[03:17] <Simba> that is about it
[03:17] <Heeman> I did a tiny bit of perl once
[03:17] <Heeman> C++, god
[03:17] <Heeman> I should take a course on that...
[03:17] <Heeman> but lol
[03:17] <Heeman> it's... different
[03:17] <Heeman> a lot of people like perl
[03:17] <Heeman> from what I can tell
[03:17] <Heeman> anyway, bye!
[03:17] <Simba> yeah, that is because there are infinite ways to store data
[03:17] <Heeman> yep
[03:18] <Heeman> talk to you later, good luck with zee bot
[03:18] * Heeman is now known as Heeman|offline
[03:19] <SleepyZombie> If you need help on c++, I may be able to provide
[03:19] <SleepyZombie> what was XylBot coded in, again?
[03:20] <Simba> Perl
[03:21] <SleepyZombie> meh... I know very little perl... just the basic programming syntax...
[03:21] <SleepyZombie> I'm focusing on lua as a scripting language to embbed with c++
[03:22] <Monty> HAI GIES
[03:23] <SleepyZombie> hi, Monty
[03:27] <Mazapan> lua is a nice language
[03:27] <SleepyZombie> it is wonderful
[03:27] <Mazapan> what I don't get is why people use lua + C++ instead of just using something more modern
[03:28] <SleepyZombie> because lua has a C api
[03:28] <Mazapan> so?
[03:28] <SleepyZombie> you have it all set to easyly embbed to c++
[03:28] <Mazapan> just because something is easy doesn't mean it's worth doing
[03:28] <SleepyZombie> you can use C# or other things too...
[03:29] <SleepyZombie> But, in my case... I'm using it with something that requires speed
[03:29] <Mazapan> oh kay
[03:29] <Mazapan> and?
[03:29] <SleepyZombie> so, graphical core c++ and opengl
[03:29] <Monty> c++ remains one of the most powerful coding languages known to main
[03:29] <Monty> man*
[03:29] <SleepyZombie> Some things will be handled with lua.
[03:29] <Mazapan> C++ sucks
[03:29] <Mazapan> it's horrible
[03:29] <SleepyZombie> that statement is stupid
[03:30] <SleepyZombie> nothing sucks
[03:30] <SleepyZombie> it's a tool
[03:30] <Mazapan> no?
[03:30] <SleepyZombie> you might not like it
[03:30] <Monty> c++ is dated, but it strikes an excellent line between low-level interaction and high-level usability
[03:30] <Mazapan> what text editor do you use?
[03:30] <SleepyZombie> VS
[03:30] <Mazapan> Monty: no, not really
[03:30] <Mazapan> ok
[03:30] <Mazapan> why don't you use edlin?
[03:30] <Monty> yes really Mazapan; that's why everyone uses it
[03:30] <Mazapan> edlin is a tool
[03:30] <SleepyZombie> wtf?
[03:30] <Mazapan> nothing sucks, therefore edlin doesn't suck, therefore use edlin
[03:31] <Mazapan> learn to discern good tools from bad ones
[03:31] <SleepyZombie> If edling suits you for what you're doing, sure
[03:31] <SleepyZombie> use it
[03:31] <Mazapan> C++ is a shitty tool
[03:31] <SleepyZombie> The right tool for the right job
[03:31] <SleepyZombie> right
[03:31] <Mazapan> edlin is a shitty tool
[03:31] <Monty> millions of programmers all over th world disagree with you Mazapan
[03:31] <Mazapan> uhh
[03:31] <SleepyZombie> now that you've said so... we can tell all developers they've been doing it the wrong way
[03:31] <Mazapan> Monty: that's a logical falacy
[03:31] <Mazapan> "all developers"
[03:31] <Monty> is it?
[03:31] <Mazapan> wow
[03:31] <SleepyZombie> let them use C# and java and just eliminate 1000 couple of features so it can run just as smooth
[03:32] <Mazapan> surprised to see that from 2 mafia players
[03:32] <Mazapan> ok
[03:32] <Monty> c++ isn't perfect, but it's a powerful language and can be made compatible with almost anything
[03:32] <SleepyZombie> When I say all developers I mean all developers who've been using c++
[03:32] <SleepyZombie> don't fucking nitpick
[03:32] <SleepyZombie> nothing is perfect.  If it suits you, done
[03:32] <Mazapan> do either of you know about languages that are faster than C++ and also suck less?
[03:32] <SleepyZombie> if it doesnt... use something  else but dont pretend its not good
[03:33] <Mazapan> C++ is not good
[03:33] <Monty> you refuse to define what you mean by suck
[03:33] <Monty> so no
[03:33] <SleepyZombie> please, do not say assembler
[03:33] <SleepyZombie> or I'll shoot myself
[03:33] <Mazapan> you only think it's good because you're ignorant of other optiosn
[03:33] <SleepyZombie> right, Mazapan
[03:33] <SleepyZombie> we are ignorant
[03:33] <SleepyZombie> now kill yourself
[03:33] <SleepyZombie> please
[03:33] <Mazapan> why would I kill myself?
[03:33] <Mazapan> you're not only ignorant, you're also hostile to the idea that you could be wrong
[03:34] <Monty> lord rocket pants demands it
[03:34] <Mazapan> you're emotionally invested in the tool you've chosen
[03:34] <Mazapan> but you can't explain why you've chosen it except "well other people use it"
[03:34] <@XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || Congratulations to Simba and SharkFinn for winning the last game! |||
[03:34] <Mazapan> you're ignorant of the other, better, more advanced, options available
[03:34] <SleepyZombie> yes, Mazapan, that's why Im learning as many languages an paradigms as I can as I go
[03:34] <Mazapan> so, good job
[03:34] <SleepyZombie> I'm married to c++
[03:34] <Monty> Mazapan; personally i can't wrap my head around some of the shit c++ does
[03:35] <SleepyZombie> nor can he, clearly
[03:35] <Mazapan> Monty: not surprising, it's kinda gross
[03:35] <Mazapan> SleepyZombie: lol
[03:35] <Monty> i much prefer Lua, and mostly i'm a designer, not a programmer, so i prefer to use things ilke Actionscript or Torquescript
[03:35] <Monty> and in rare cases Java, although Java is a gigantic mess
[03:35] <SleepyZombie> again, it depends on what you're trying to do!
[03:35] <Mazapan> I'm pretty sure I know a shitload more about C++ than anyone else in this channel
[03:35] <Mazapan> well
[03:35] <SleepyZombie> sure, Mazapan
[03:35] <Mazapan> Xyl doesn't count
[03:35] <SleepyZombie> talk is all you need to prove it
[03:35] <SleepyZombie> just talk
[03:36] <Monty> there must be a reason why everyone else uses c++ Mazapan
[03:36] <Mazapan> 23:35:14 < SleepyZombie> nor can he, clearly
[03:36] <SleepyZombie> in fact
[03:36] <Mazapan> Monty: yea, there is
[03:36] <SleepyZombie> go to ##programming in freenode
[03:36] <SleepyZombie> and tell those guys how awesome you are
[03:36] <Mazapan> it's because people have the same attitude as SleepyZombie
[03:36] <SleepyZombie> that idiot stourtroup
[03:36] <Mazapan> SleepyZombie: why would I do that?
[03:36] <SleepyZombie> what was he thinking
[03:36] <Monty> and that attitude is?
[03:36] <Monty> you're really not very good at making a case you know
[03:37] <Mazapan> the "I'm right, I'm not ignorant, everyone else uses it, it must be good" attitude
[03:37] <Monty> i'm surprised that somone who plays mafia is so bad at making a cohesive argument
[03:37] <Mazapan> my argument is pretty simple
[03:37] <SleepyZombie> no, you have no argument
[03:37] <SleepyZombie> you didnt say anything
[03:37] <Mazapan> there are better options than C++ and lua
[03:37] <SleepyZombie> you didnt list advantages and disavdantages
[03:37] <SleepyZombie> you said
[03:37] <SleepyZombie> "there are better things"
[03:37] <Mazapan> instead of using those, people stick to what they know
[03:38] <Monty> you still havn't explained what you mean by better
[03:38] <Monty> or what those options are
[03:38] <SleepyZombie> Ok, EXAMPLES
[03:38] <SleepyZombie> please
[03:38] <Mazapan> better is easy
[03:38] <Monty> Mazapan: sticking to a language you know instead of learning a new language is a point in the old language's favor
[03:38] <SleepyZombie> also, popularity IS a good trait
[03:38] <Monty> learning a new language takes time and effort that many commercial progammers may not feel is worth the investment
[03:38] <Mazapan> better would mean, for the same purpose, you can code less and/or spend less time coding/debugging/etc
[03:38] <Mazapan> and get a similar or better result
[03:38] <SleepyZombie> Because you will probably find more documentation
[03:39] <Monty> also Sleepy; compatability bonus
[03:39] <SleepyZombie> Not talking about jobs that require that kind of knowledge
[03:39] <Mazapan> nah, if you spend a month learning a better language that's easy to recover via increased productivity over the next N years or whatever that you code
[03:39] <SleepyZombie> and optimization due to experience with it
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> you still haven't said anything, Mazapan
[03:40] <Mazapan> no, I've said a lot
[03:40] <Mazapan> you're being an ignorant fuckwit
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> It's like if you were talking about ONE ideal programming language that only you know
[03:40] <Mazapan> why should I have to spoon feed you?
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> and that elitist attitude is useless
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> right tool for the right job
[03:40] <Mazapan> given your attitude and hostility, why should I even continue the discussion?
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> There's no PERFECT library
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> there's no perfect API
[03:40] <SleepyZombie> Just one that suits your needs
[03:41] <SleepyZombie> Oh God.. man
[03:41] <Monty> leave him alone SleepyZombie
[03:41] <Monty> he's pulling a Linux User
[03:41] <SleepyZombie> Ok.
[03:41] <SleepyZombie> OS has nothing to do with it
[03:41] <SleepyZombie> oh.. I see
[03:41] <Monty> i know SleepyZombie
[03:41] <Monty> i'm saying he's doing what many elitist Linux users do and running around saying that Windows sucks and Linux is awesome and anyone who uses Windows must be an idiot because Linux is sooo much better
[03:41] <SleepyZombie> Why c++ sucks (Torval)?  I love c?
[03:41] <SleepyZombie> It's the same low level mess...
[03:42] <Monty> he's just doing it with c++ and whatever pet language he has
[03:42] <Mazapan> nice strawman
[03:42] <SleepyZombie>  /msg XylBot shoot self

What's your take on this?

Rules: No Flaming.  If I count 2 flaming posts I'll just lock the thread.  No warnings.
1) Is there a programming language that sucks?
2) Are there any languages that you think should be buried? why?
3) What's popularity to a language?

[sarack]

Seems pretty standard to me. Learning a programming language is a fair bit of time to invest. Obviously nobody wants to admit that this time was wasted. Therefore most programmers (especially ones with no form of formal education in programming in my experience) blindly believe their chosen language to be the best for whatever reason.

1) Is there a programming language that sucks?
Visual Basic. I mean come on, if you have an undefined variable it takes the value of that variable to be 0 or an empty string, whatever is appropriate. No error, no warning. It just does it without telling you. The only way Visual Basic can be slightly useful is if you're using VB.NET, but even then...

2) Are there any languages that you think should be buried? why?
No language should really be completely 'buried' because most languages are really good at doing some specific task. That doesn't mean some languages like C should still be so widely used though. IMHO, C is the most over-rated language out there. Yes, the language is fast but unless you're coding either an OS or for an embedded device, you DO NOT need that speed. And if you think you need the speed, then you're clearly failing at whatever you're trying to implement. It's an outdated language. Still handy to have around when you need it, but severely over-rated.

3) What's popularity to a language?
More than it should be. It's nice to be able to draw upon a wealth of tutorials and documentation from other users, but it shouldn't ever be a deciding factor in choosing a language. It matter more how the language fairs on its own.

I'm tired, so apologies for any spelling errors. Try an keep it civil, people. You can disagree without calling someone an idiot.

[Strife26]

I like QBasic, but I'm crazy . . . .

[qwertyuiopas]

c++ remains one of the most powerful coding languages known to main

Was that intentional? main()? If so, quite clever.

1) Is there a programming language that sucks?

Yes, countless of them.
See here.

Outside of intentionally terrible languages(where success can be seen as a fun challenge, and the languages are only used by people in their spare time as entertainment), the worst just end up forgotten and discarded, only leaving the better languages. "Better" is quite relative, however, so I'm sure that if you looked long enough, you would find many terrible languages that someone found good enough to use for some reason.

2) Are there any languages that you think should be buried? why?

Every single one. However, "DWIM" is not a valid programming language yet, so some of the old and still usable ones must remain...

[Muz]

IMHO, C(++) is still very powerful for doing most things. It's a language that everyone knows, so it should be a lot of people's first programming language. Sort of like how most people, regardless of nationality should learn English - it's not the best, or the most beautiful, but it's a standard one. Not too outdated either.. low level stuff always tends to help in performance. You'll get more done with less code in higher level programming, but someone's still going to use C because it's the most balanced one.

The ones that suck are already sort of buried. No surprise, survival of the fittest.