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[ravensword227]

quote:Originally posted by ZouPrime:
<STRONG>You want *more* weapons?

Maybe it's because I haven't been playing this game as long as some of you guys have, but my general impression is that this alpha suffer from too much of certain options, such as weapons for example.

Having new weapons would mean new profession and thus something else to micromanage. Right now I'm using a mixture of different soldier classes, but frankly I could use all swordsmen and I don't know how much it would make a difference. I know that some weapons have different damage characteristics than the others, but do these differences trully justify having all these options?

Sometimes I wonder if the game would benefit from having its profession system greatly simplyfied instead. For example, having one single soldier class (that can use all weapons), one single craftman class, etc. Sure it would be less options and maybe less realism (if that's even important), but the mid-end game would be easier to handle and more streamlined. Anyway...</STRONG>

With the possible exception of the whip, the playable weapons have surprisingly different, useful utility.  Weapon Analysis:
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Combat

Bloat 15 will add dirty combat.  I've heard it mentioned before and I believe that includes things like slitting throats with daggers out of stealth.
 http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html

[Nexus]

I think many of the new weapons could be put into the same classes as the existing weapons.  The hammer skill could be used for both warhammers, mauls and the like (haven't played much adv. mode, so I dont know if that's already the case).  But some weapons like scimtars and longswords would still have to get their own skill, since they are used differently.  
A good compromise between having just one fighting skill and "too many" don'tcha think?

[Fishersalwaysdie]

There should be more weapon tags.
Then people could mod almost every weapon possible and people would be forever happy (at least concerning weapons).

[Haedrian]

quote:Originally posted by ZouPrime:
<STRONG>You want *more* weapons?

Maybe it's because I haven't been playing this game as long as some of you guys have, but my general impression is that this alpha suffer from too much of certain options, such as weapons for example.</STRONG>

If you're trying to take out a giant, you wont do much with a sword, but a spear would damage internal organs. If you're trying to fight undead with a spear, you can just give up. Weapons actually MEAN something in this game.. and its fun to have a mixture.

[Dreamer]

For now, just having a dagger skill would making me happy.  It'd go along nicely with an "Ambusher" class or something.

[mickel]

Kukri and katana? That's an interesting mix. One's nepalese and the other japanese if I recall. I don't really feel like more katanawankery, but that's just me... I don't see what they'd add, they're just another longsword, and we already have those. They don't seem to fit in the culture in DF, which seems firly occidental.

As for more weapon variety... Well, knives are one thing. But other than that I think there's a pretty good variety. Better to focus on more urgent things first, more weapons and skills can be pasted in later.

[Temporal]

quote:Originally posted by Nexus:
<STRONG>I think many of the new weapons could be put into the same classes as the existing weapons.  The hammer skill could be used for both warhammers, mauls and the like (haven't played much adv. mode, so I dont know if that's already the case).  But some weapons like scimtars and longswords would still have to get their own skill, since they are used differently.  
A good compromise between having just one fighting skill and "too many" don'tcha think?</STRONG>

I think this is the best option. One class makes things a lot simpler and could still provide a lot of variation.
Sword skill: Scimitar, Long Sword, BroadSword, Claymore, Serrated Sword, Rusty Sword, Katana, Cracked Sword, ect

You could even throw short swords or daggers into that category really, though that might require broadening it to a Blade skill, which might not be a bad Idea in itself. Blade, Blunt, Pole, Range, and so on?

Blade being well, weapons with blades, though maybe not axes. Blunt being hammers, maces, or that guys head you just cut off, pole being a spear, staff, or that long stick with a fork tied to it, and range being things like slings, bows, and maybe throwing. (Throwing seems a strange skill to have separate)

I think it could work well either way, But in terms of skills I think simpler is better. I'd much rather have a Range skill that included shooting a bow as well as throwing rather than 2 seperate skills.

[Eagleon]

In the original Armok, you had general weapon skills like we do now, then weapon type skills such as shortsword, longsword, etc, then skill with individual weapons. I thought this was quite a bit more realistic, since not every weapon of a specific type is the same - one might be heavier, another might have a different balance, and so on.

You wouldn't have to generate this for everyone, of course, just the people the player encounters, as well as dwarves in fortress mode. If you wanted to look at what each dwarf was good at beyond the general level, you could do that in the screen where you can do custom professions. I don't think you should be able to look at skills for specific weapons, though - in adventure mode, a message saying "You feel comfortable with your weapon now" after you gained a certain amount of skill would do the trick.

Anyway, at the very least, please don't go the Oblivion route and make daggers use the same skill as claymores.

[ August 13, 2007: Message edited by: Eagleon ]

[mickel]

I've seen plenty of systems, none of which were perfect. I remember I was fiddling with one that was a bit overly complicated, but might give some ideas for something better anyway.

The principle was that of trees. It started with a generic combat skill, which split into melee, pole, and ranged, and then into categories. For my favourite sword, the rapier, you'd go combat -> melee -> swords -> cut-and-stab -> light -> long-and-thin -> etc. (Told you it was overy complicated...  

The point of it was that skills started at half or so of the skill above them in the tree, and the skill above in the tree was raised by a bit if one of the skills below it rose enough.

In the above example, let's say I had 50 in melee weapons. I would then automatically have 25 in swords. If I raised swords to 200 my melee would go up to 100 automatically (and my combat to 50 if it wasn't higher already...)

Again, I'm not suggesting this for DF, it's just something to think about.

[Lightning4]

Maybe some weapons actually tied to throwing and gain more benifit from being thrown, but still work about 50% as effective in melee.

Throwing spears, daggers, stars, axes, hammers, hell even throwing rocks if you're strapped for weaponry, but they're not as effective in melee.

Each one having their own benifit...
Spears, still have the nasty crit damage boost and decent damage, and have pretty far range. Takes longer to throw and has a slower "reload" time.
Daggers being decent all around, carrying their crit bonus and extra damage.
Stars are sort of similiar to daggers, and also have an equivalent crit bonus and some damage. Their bonus is they can be thrown faster with a shorter "reload"
time, and have slightly improved range.
Axes are a fairly rounded weapon. Most effective at severing limbs or causing nasty stuck-ins. Average damage otherwise, and average range.
And hammers have a pretty short range but in exchange they are good at shattering bones and leaving targets in pain or unconscious.
And rocks, heh. Basically good for training or if you cannot make any of the good weapons. Basically they're like hammers, only they do less damage and have a fairly long throwing and "reload" time.

Upsides
-100% recover rate unless the weapon wears out.
-Training uses a special training dummy, probably one made of several bags filled with sand or some soft material. Dummy gets worn out pretty quickly though and has to be replaced.
-With training and better quality weapons, they can become quite accurate and do some pretty big damage.
-Can be thrown through fortifications, though rocks may take a small hit to encourage player to make better weapons.

Downsides
-Enemy monsters may pick up a throwing weapon and throw it back. Perhaps not as effectively but if it's a really good quality weapon this can be dangerous, especially if they get a lucky shot. Fortifications should also affect them throwing it back, but be wary if the opposing monster is a Elite Thrower.
-Weapons take normal wear when they hit, but misses cause much, much more wear. A throwing weapon cannot survive too many misses. This even applies to training, since novices will likely miss a target that isn't moving many, many times.
-Weapons are smaller than their normal melee counterparts and have a different, balanced, possibly lighter design. This makes them less effective in melee. This may also make their ranged weapon damage 1.5x-2x that of crossbows, basically as a balance so as not to make them terribly overpowered.
-Slightly longer "reload" time than a crossbow. Also for balancing.
-Ammo tends to be pretty finite and not very disposable. Once they have thrown their last one, they will likely go into melee range to wrestle, or grab the nearest weapon of whatever skill is highest and charge in, including their own throwing weapons. If they are able, they'll recover a throwing weapon or two and  either use them for melee, or sprint to range and start chucking again.

Obsidian could be used for spears, daggers, and throwing stars, though much like what was intended for short swords, they wear out faster. Quality also has heavy bearing on a throwing weapon, affecting the balance, weight, and damage. Don't expect to hit too many things with a poor quality throwing weapon and a novice wielding it.

And of course, this carries over to adventure mode as well.

[ August 14, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[ August 14, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[ August 14, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]