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Author Topic: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:  (Read 1480 times)

Pickerel

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A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« on: February 20, 2010, 01:51:41 am »

Usually I like to reserve posts for either questions or things of some worth.  I don't always do so, and because I generally have so little of worth, I end up with a high frivolous post ratio.  That said, I apologize if this is redundant or useless.  I know it's just an extremely minor thing.

One thing I find to be too easy is the farming, and one thing I found to fix it, and it really seems to work/balance, is to very simply change the GROWDUR values.  The numbers I currently use are the following: 300 --> 1000, 400 (I think that is default.  Basically anything that didn't have a specified GROWDUR.) --> 1300, 500 --> 1600.  This keeps the ratios approximately the same as before modification.

This has several important effects. 
1. it actually takes 1 - 1.6 seasons to grow things.  This is relatively realistic, as one of the few crops I know that grow in 30 days (the equivalent of 300 growdur) is radishes, and not much else.  Everything else takes 2-3 months at least.
2. Things that are only growable for 2 seasons must now, also accurately, be planted at the right time of the season.  If I had Corn and it had GROWDUR:1300, this would be the equivalent of planting at the middle of spring to get a product by the end of summer.  If I waited too long to plant, such as doing so in the beginning of summer, heck it just won't let me knowing that it will just fail.  And I have done this RL: if you plant at the wrong time (as I did), you aren't going to get any corn.
3. You will be able to support your fort just fine, but you will need more space in which to do it (about 4X as much), and you can't plant plump helmuts to suddenly save the lives of starving dwarves.  They will starve long before it is ready.
4. Everything you own will actually be more (to much more) difficult to coat with Dimple Dye dyed Pig Tail Cloth Images.  Unfortunately, I too often ended up with a fort able to buy out entire caravans with this tactic after merely 1-2 years.  NO MORE can I do this so easily.  First, there is either a bottleneck at planters of seeds, or at arable land at first.
5. Your herbalist and what you can find around becomes even more necessary for a fort, as you may need to, depending highly on what you bring, depend on them for the first 1/3-1/2 year.  The herbalist also becomes necessary if food ever begins to run short because of shoddy management of resources or unexpected fires.  Again, this is because you can't just whip up a pile of plump helmut in 1 month.  Farming becomes the society-stabilizing feature it is meant to be, not the instant fix, or the sudden infinite food source upon embark.

Notes:
1. I've yet to experiment with, or pay attention to, how multi-season plots are affected by addition of fertilizer.
2. I have in the past had objections when people thought plants would become unplantable.  However the way unplantability works is it takes the growdur, and looks at the number of growdur-ticks until the season in which the plant becomes ungrowable.  If the former is larger then the latter, it is marked in red and will not be planted.  For example, if put on a 2-season plant with GROWDUR 2000, this means that after 24 GROWDUR-ticks, the plant becomes unplantable.  If it was GROWDUR 2024, the plant would never technically be plantable.  That said, however, if a plant grows fast enough and has 3 seasons (like peas, which can often get two crops in because of their cold tolerance, since one can plant quite early), it could get two entirely separate crops.  Furthermore those plants with all 4 seasons will never encounter an ungrowable season, thus I use, successfully, specialty plants with GROWDUR of 15,000 (just under 4 years).  It works.
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ungulateman

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 03:35:39 am »

Now, to balance out the longer grow times, you probably should increase the yields (if that's possible). Realistic farming is an often suggested thing, look at the 'Improved Farming' thread in Suggestions.
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Pickerel

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 04:11:34 am »

Why would you increase yields?  Increased yields could actually put us back at square 2 (not 1, because some things are maintained), really, completely undoing many of the effects of the change.  If I could produce a stack of 5 in 300 GROWDUR, or a stack of 20 in 1200 GROWDUR, I get the same amount.  So while the farming not being an instantaneous thing is maintained, the reduction in yield-per-time is countered because the resulting yield-per-time is the same.  Thus we lower the space requirement back to normal, lower the labor needed, and now have the problem of stacks of 20 being instantly brewed.  Such things limit the brewers in their skill, and limit the farmers back to the norm because said farmers only plant one plant to get 20.  Also we have the 1 seed-per-tile thing, so now a seed would produce 20, which will likely get 30ish seed.  Heck at that point you might as well cook your seeds because you will get them FAR faster then you can plant them, and there's a 200 seed limit, or 6.66-stacks-of-20 resulting seed limit (assuming 30 seed from said stack).

I find that the numbers given work very well with no increase in yield.  It just makes farming require an ounce more thought and care (like actually paying attention to the things I assign for planting in what season).  And because he needs to plant more to make up the plants-per-time, your farmer dwarves will have more to do and become legendary faster.

If you want a lowering in your food-per-unit-time-per-unit-space but don't want it to go as low as I use (1/4), then just use other numbers.  Maybe just use 300=600, 400=800, 500=1000.  That cuts the food-per-time-per-unit-space in 1/2, and still corresponds to slow-growing crops taking  3 months to mature.

So I would judge no, while you could increase yield if you really want to, I would recommend keeping yield increases to the addition of potash in-game.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 04:21:46 am »

Maybe not if you instead of doing a 1:1 increase you make it so that its only 1:2 of yield compared to time grown.
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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 08:47:37 am »

OK I am totally with the OP here. I usually set growdur to 1200 though, but only because I randomly picked that number. The early game requires some hunting and trading this way, and the game becomes more interesting.
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The13thRonin

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 08:53:26 am »

Ideally it would be nice to have some sort of leaving fields fallow to increase the fertility of the soil as they did in real medieval farming. The longer you used a patch of soil the less it would yield. Also crop failures, plagues, animal attacks on crops would be welcome additions.

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Wits

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 08:57:59 am »

I, too, have to agree with the OP on this. If one wishes to make farming harder and actually increase the labor involved, why would one increase yield at all?
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ungulateman

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 07:58:21 pm »

Because growing a crop for 3-4 months and getting 2-3 plants out of it - a loss, considering how often dwarves eat - is not fun, Fun or any other type of enjoyable-ness. Losing may be fun, but not losing because your crops don't feed you. I don't think getting 20+ plants out of one seed is wise, but increasing the amount you get (say, on average, 6-7 plants) means people won't lose simply because they didn't start growing quick enough.
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CaptApollo12

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 08:15:50 pm »

This is for people who know how to farm, and know that they need to plant thier crops quickly. (like RL settlers)
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madjoe5

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 08:45:54 pm »

To increase difficulty, I usually jus make edible plants either brew-able or edible raw, never both. However, this method is even less realistic than the current farming method.

Pickerel

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 07:05:32 pm »

Because growing a crop for 3-4 months and getting 2-3 plants out of it - a loss, considering how often dwarves eat - is not fun, Fun or any other type of enjoyable-ness. Losing may be fun, but not losing because your crops don't feed you. I don't think getting 20+ plants out of one seed is wise, but increasing the amount you get (say, on average, 6-7 plants) means people won't lose simply because they didn't start growing quick enough.

I should mention that I have consistently used this method in every release for several years in many perfectly successful forts, and just never saw anyone mention it.  I've gotten some near-close-calls because I can't rely on extremely sudden (Hey, he wants a plant fiber for his mood, if I plant it right now I could have it in 1 month for him, plenty of time) plant growth.  I actually have to plan seasonally.  Also, the numbers I have chosen I have done so partly because they give a very good margin of error: 1 whole month AT LEAST (2024 - 1600 = 424), and 1 whole season at most (2024 - 1000 = 1024, a whole season).  And most things don't even have restrictions, so you can plant year-round, it will just not have nearly instantaneous results, and will take more space to support your populous.  Don't Outgrow Your Food and you shall be all right.
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plenum

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 03:31:09 am »

good topic
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i2amroy

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 10:00:32 am »

I like the idea, but just one thing that I discovered in 40d. If a plant is set to be able to be grown in all seasons and in the course of growing it will cross the year's end the game will not let you plant it. This was annoying for me because several of my modded plants were originally going to grow over the winter spring seasons but it wouldn't let me plant them. :'(
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dennislp3

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Re: A simple plant thing to increase difficulty:
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 10:34:49 am »

Because growing a crop for 3-4 months and getting 2-3 plants out of it - a loss, considering how often dwarves eat - is not fun, Fun or any other type of enjoyable-ness. Losing may be fun, but not losing because your crops don't feed you. I don't think getting 20+ plants out of one seed is wise, but increasing the amount you get (say, on average, 6-7 plants) means people won't lose simply because they didn't start growing quick enough.

That is where extra food sources like cattle come in....this ultimately makes things more realistic and challenging...I find that more fun...Crops come and when they do they are great...and it makes storing food properly something to think about...also gives you the feeling that if you lose all your food to a fire or something there is an actual problem...not something that doesnt matter
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