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Author Topic: How to get a properly dead/Inaccessible Dwarven civ?  (Read 1031 times)

StuffPhoton

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How to get a properly dead/Inaccessible Dwarven civ?
« on: June 24, 2021, 04:57:08 am »

Hi

I have been trying to get a dead, or effectively dead, dwarven civ to play with. Which, in theory, should result in only 2 migrant waves and no dwarven caravans ever.

I have tried the DEADCIV_STEEL worldgen options posted by vjek in http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158646.msg7055597#msg7055597, but the dwarven caravan still spawns in autumn.

I have also tried using a custom heightmap to ristrict the spawning of the dwarves onto an isolated island and using an custom heatmap to ensure the ocean around that island never freeze over. This should mean that the main landmass in inaccessible to any dwarven civ, which, according to the wiki, should result in the same results as a dead civ.
The dwarven caravan still happily crossed the (presumably) 100 degrees celsius ocean and showned up on time in autumn
Here's the worldgen params I used to spawn the dwarves on an island
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Is the first dwarven caravan scripted?
Did I just not kill the dwarves hard enough?
Or is there some critical part that I missed?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 05:05:32 am by StuffPhoton »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How to get a properly dead/Inaccessible Dwarven civ?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2021, 06:55:27 am »

There are three states for civs: Healthy, "struggling" and dead. You can embark as a healthy civ and then end up with a struggling one during game play if invaders capture your mountainhome, but there's no way to reach the dead state.

Due to accounting bugs in DF, civs that logically are long dead usually aren't according to DF, and as long as DF doesn't consider it to be dead you'll get caravans (which can go AWOL for long stretches of time regardless of civ health), unlimited migrant waves (that, again, can go missing for various reasons), and a monarch (usually very quickly, if the civ is struggling).

A truly dead civ, on the other hand, gets at most the two first waves (they can get lost due to pop caps and necro invasions), never any caravans, and never any monarch.

In addition to that, civs that DF actually consider dead are not made available for embark unless there are no civs that aren't officially dead, which is rare.
vjek's post was made several years ago, and worked with the DF version current at that time, but even a slight change to DF tends to result in the world gen/history to differ to a lesser or greater degree, killing the rare conditions that provide truly dead civs.

There are two essentially approaches to get dead civs:
1. Change the raws to spawn only one dwarven civ, and then generate worlds until you get a dead civ. This can be done with vanilla DF, and you can speed up the process by generating worlds with very short histories, embark, and check the civ-civ screen. If the screen is empty (no entries at all), the civ is dead. Save the game and start it in Legends Mode, export the world gen parameters, past those in <DF>\data\init\world_gen.txt, and change the length of the history only to generate the same world with a history if the length you actually want.

2. Generate worlds with many dwarven civs and make dead ones available for embark using the DFHack script permit_dead (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165084.msg7526484#msg7526484). If any civs are considered to be dead by DF, the script should make those available for selection on embark. Again, you'll probably have to generate many worlds to get a dead civ, so the short history trick above can be applied here as well.

It can be noted that I believe civs can die during world gen, but the quickest way to find them is to look for the dwarven site getting destroyed very early, rather than wait for a long time only to find that the civ usually wasn't dead according to DF.

You can increase your chances of getting dead civs by using the slab_civ script found at the link above. It basically corrects one accounting error DF does, which can lead to civs being declared dead by DF. This approach can be combined with either of the two ones above, but obviously requires the usage of DFHack.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 06:59:53 am by PatrikLundell »
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vjek

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Re: How to get a properly dead/Inaccessible Dwarven civ?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2021, 06:03:59 pm »

It's also worth noting that there are parameters you can use to strongly encourage the death of a dwarven civ.

I tried to work out a 100% consistent method in vanilla DF, but.. Mr. Procedural (that random no-good deterministic jerk) isn't co-operating.  ;D
Even in light of that failure, though, what PatrikLundell has outlined is essentially the solution.  Once you have the geography down, change the rest of the seeds to random and keep generating worlds.  Unless you have more than one dwarven civ in your world, it's possible to get a dead civ reasonably quickly, from what I've seen.
If your premise or scenario requires more than 1 living dwarven civ in the world, that will definitely make things more difficult.

Among the parameters that have worked for me, which are all situational, increasing semi/megabeasts, clowns, and having a clown-led goblin civ adjacent to the single dwarven civ have all resulted in a quick, early, and permanent dwarven civ death.
Also, having a single large cave in the world, knowing where it's placed (it's typically in the NW corner) and having the 'right' megabeast (roc, dragon, bronze colossus, hydra) show up there can also be very effective, if adjacent.

I have many, many examples of truly dead dwarven civs, and would be happy to find a way to make yours dead too, StuffPhoton, if you have a vanilla worlgen parameter file with the appropriate geography. (or if you just want to fill out a Desired Embark Features form, and post it in the current worldgen cookbook thread)

StuffPhoton

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Re: How to get a properly dead/Inaccessible Dwarven civ?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2021, 09:34:36 am »

Ok, Thank you guys so much for the detailed explanation! I think I'll try the re-roll strategy, would also be fun to read all the stories of the struggles of these unfortunate dwarven civ!
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