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Author Topic: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.  (Read 3113 times)

Nekose

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Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« on: July 30, 2008, 07:51:38 am »

I'd like to see easier ways of searching z levels for rare materials and metals.

Two ideas come to mind:

Survey Skill:
A new noble that could reveal pockets and veins. He would need an office, and after a period of study would reveal tiles of the map. Skill level would increase the rate of discovery or maybe range away from dig sites. Other people have posted similar ideas, but this seems like the best way about it.

Blasting:
This obviously would require a bit more work.

An explsoive device could be detonated on a Z level, cracks shoot through the level tunneling a fair distance away, revealing tiles as if it was mined. This could prove to be very dangerous near magma or water sources.


Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 07:55:36 am by Nekose »
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Sapidus3

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 08:06:09 am »

Blasting seems like it could be really cool, but I honestly don't see my self using it to look for metals. I can think of alot more fun things to do with it :).

A noble with the survey skill would be a welcome addition. He could perhaps survey X z-levels below where he walks and Y tiles around him on the z-level he is located. X and Y are some variable that increases as he becomes more talented. The chance of finding them within his radius of detection would also increase as he becomes more experienced. Limiting his range would make exploratory mining still important, and also increase the likely hood of it paying off.

The skills related to surveying could also be something miners exercise very slightly as they mine. Minners would "passively" use this skill. passive use of the skill would just happen while they mine, but the chance of success would be greatly lowered, and the range would be decreased as well. The Surveyer would actively use this skill, giving him full use of his abilities.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. Perhaps there could be a new zone type, a "survey zone," if you will. Your surveyor would dedicate more of his time walking around these zones and surveying the walls and floors around it. This way you could direct his efforts in some way instead of him always just wandering around the soil layers looking for iron.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:08:24 am by Sapidus3 »
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Nikov

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 05:22:20 pm »

I don't think a surveyor should reveal tiles. Visually it would make for much less appealing fortresses as large amounts of normal stone is revealed where you used to have neat, black space. However, I do not feel the idea is without merit. Instead of revealing tiles around them, I think it should be more of a hunch system.

Lets say you've stricken the earth on a fresh fortress. There are several exposed veins of hematite and an exposed vein of gold. Once your miners have exhumed X monies worth of mineral ores, the Prospector noble will be dispatched in the next migrant wave. This dwarf is similar to the dungeon master in that his likes are preset, but he prefers his furniture made from raw ore and economic stone, say, marble statues and hematite crafts. When satisfied with his arrangements he goes to work. The prospector then begins to walk around on any rough stone, indoor or outdoor, and snoops about for traces of this or that. Smooth stone will block his "vision" as any trace veins or other clues have been marred to his eye. This also keeps him in the mine works. When he draws near a deposit, as according to his current skill's search radius, a check is made on his skill level and he either discovers or ignores that deposit. If he discovers it, a single tile of the deposit is marked with a blinking ? and the message is displayed "Urist McPicksworth suspects Coal", or whatever. Then your miners can head down and dig to the site. If the prospector ignores the deposit, he gains no experience and will not make checks on that deposit until his skill level has improved a point, at which time all "ignore deposit" flags are reset.

If testing shows this reveals too many deposits and makes mining too easy, the prospector could make mistakes early in his career, accidentally labelling Orthoclase as Yellow Beryl and so forth.

I also think HFS should be invisible to him. They don't exactly have samples of that in the geologist's guild back home.

The logic behind this character was gained in my real life; after a college geology class I was enormously attentive while touring a Georgia gold mine. Pencil-thin veins of gold bearing quartz ran all through the granite mountain, while the mine was dug to exploit an enormous gold-bearing ore deposit that could fit a house and all the handsbreath wide deposits they could find. Here's a hint; they economically mine those pencil veins in Africa. They discovered that the hills had gold not because someone was digging a cellar but because the creekbeds had gold specks in the quartz sands. They went a little up the creek, finding more gold, walking farther up the creek, and here was a mountain.  Now the role of this geologist dwarf is to walk up to a cliff and see these thin little traces of quartz, chip a little out, stir it around in a pan back in his office, and find gold with a jewelers glass. Then he calls out Eureka, points at what the miners thought was an ordinary granite wall in a bedroom, and tells them to dig. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong.

For that matter, he should get most of his experience when proven right by digging out the spot he chose and finding the mineral he suspected.

It has been suggested miners also use this skill passively, but I feel it should be reserved for legendary miners, or one rank of Geologist added at the ranks of Master and above.
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Sapidus3

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 05:40:48 pm »

HFS should definitely not be revealed by him. 

I like most of Nikov's ideas. Having smooth stone block his skills seem like a good idea. It also is a good idea not simply revealing tiles. Perhaps the markers that show where he suspects there to be minerals would only be visible while designating mining. Sort of how engraving designations only are visible while designating.

I think he should be able to locate underwater rivers with a bit of skill. I don't have any real live experience, but it seems that you should be able to hear the water a bit through the stone, water may leak through cracks, condensation, and maybe there are also geological clues.  Maybe they could also find chasms.  The river comment comes from a recent map I am on where, according to the site finder, there is a underground river, but I can not for the life of me or my dwarfs find it. I'm sure I'll come across it eventually, but it made me think of this thread.
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Idiom

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 05:46:09 pm »

HFS would be revealed, but as other natural features. Actually, I think the miners should be able to detect it when they get closer, as:
"Damn, that's a huge hollow area in the rock back behind there. Having seen caves and chasms and magma pipes, I honestly have no idea what it could be."

Would we get an announcement?
"Urist the miner/geologist suspects there may be (gold/silver/a chasm/an underground river) here"
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 05:51:27 pm by Idiom »
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Nikov

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 07:48:23 pm »

HFS would be revealed, but as other natural features.

Even better...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And getting a message when you strike hollow rock from features sounds like a good idea. However I'm concerned it may cause players to never encounter HFS. Then again I've not encoutered HFS, just read spoilers  :(. I'm still against non-masterful miners having geology skills. Prospecting geology is a real college-education sort of profession, and only a decade of practical exposure or classroom study would create the sort of expert needed. And while I respect that all dwarves would be naturally attuned to stonework anyway, it would be superhuman for the oldest miner at that Georgia gold mine to point at a wall and say, "Fifty feet's another motherlode". In fact, the mine guide explained that just half a foot behind any given wall could be another 22-foot wide gold-bearing quartz seam.

Oh, and I feel less efficient forms of mining should be featured. 'Ores' like the quartz seams I mentioned, really just traps where gold dust became lodged in growing crystals, could be represented by veins of seemily useless rock crushed in a mechanically-powered stamp mill and produce gold dust. Not to mention a "panning" skill; incredibly low-yield gold and gemstone production for unemployed peasants, functional in zones where gold veins and gem deposits exist on higher Z levels.
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Sapidus3

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2008, 08:26:05 pm »

Correct me if I am wrong, but prospecting is usually done above the surface no? At least that is all that I have ever heard about. If its done below the surface how is it done different? I am asking about real life prospecting.

Prospecting may take alot of study to get good at, however DF is a fantasy game. I think allowances could be allowed. They are made with alot of other skills (metalcrafting for example). There was also a time period in American history were hundreds of relatively uneducated people were prospecting. Granted most of them met with little success, but still... It might be nice if miners could at least have a chance to tell if they missed a gold vein by a tile.

The hollow rock message could be the same one used for chasms. So people wouldn't know if they struck chasm or HFS.
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Othob Rithol

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 08:42:19 pm »


Lets say you've stricken the earth on a fresh fortress. There are several exposed veins of hematite and an exposed vein of gold. Once your miners have exhumed X monies worth of mineral ores, the Prospector noble will be dispatched in the next migrant wave. This dwarf is similar to the dungeon master in that his likes are preset, but he prefers his furniture made from raw ore and economic stone, say, marble statues and hematite crafts. When satisfied with his arrangements he goes to work. The prospector then begins to walk around on any rough stone, indoor or outdoor, and snoops about for traces of this or that. Smooth stone will block his "vision" as any trace veins or other clues have been marred to his eye. This also keeps him in the mine works. When he draws near a deposit, as according to his current skill's search radius, a check is made on his skill level and he either discovers or ignores that deposit. If he discovers it, a single tile of the deposit is marked with a blinking ? and the message is displayed "Urist McPicksworth suspects Coal", or whatever.

First I have to say I am almost universally against the addition of prospecting being implemented. But I have to admit you have described a rather realistic method that does not mar the appearance of a fort and break immersion with magically revealed tiles.

Another thing to consider for blocking the prospector would be the local presence of a known vein. This would keep the message spam down from veins that have been exposed but not mined, as well as preventing the prospector from detecting a second vein in close proximity: finding traces of Limonite in the chalk near a depleted vein would not lead one to suspect another vein three tiles over.

To keep it balanced the dwarf would have to be a noble. I am anxious for the return of guildmasters in a functional sense, and this seems like an excellent ability/perk for the Master of the Miner's Guild.
The range of detection would have to be rather short, however. Perhaps 1-3 tiles.

The second OP suggestion (blasting) I will always be against: The existence and use of explosives does not seem, to me or many other players, appropriate for the game. Just an opinion.

Draco18s

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 09:11:03 pm »

The hollow rock message could be the same one used for chasms. So people wouldn't know if they struck chasm or HFS.

Other than the very large amount of adamantine....yes.
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Impaler[WrG]

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 05:37:15 am »

This is to the Lode Finder thread I posted recently, same basic complaint (from the same people?) that revealed tiles will be 'ugly' but I fail to see how their any more ugly then exploratory mining and as folks have mentioned they can be toggled to display only when designating mining, so long as the player gets those "You have discovered Blank" announcements it will work.  The other often mentioned twist is making this a Noble only skill, I'm against that as this is is a straightforward SKILL not a RANK, nobles should not do things that are not logically restricted to an individual.
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Granite26

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 10:13:42 am »

Or maybe make it like engravings, where the OCD can turn their display off?

Although I like the 'no prospecting through smooth walls' thing.

Also, prospector(pro noble here) randomly picks spots to assay, and puts up signs.  Nothing is revealed, but there's a list of what trace minerals are in that spot.  (K) select, get the description of the sign, it says:

Gold, 20%
Aluminum 5%
Hematite 1%

And that gives you an idea of whether something is close or not.  20% might mean there is something in an adjoining square, 5% means within 10 squares, and 1% means 50 squares.

korora

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 11:03:35 am »

Or maybe make it like engravings, where the OCD can turn their display off?

As someone who is fairly OCD about his fortress, I think a lot of suggestions would be better-received if there were a designation to make tiles appear hidden.  Prospector reveals an ugly vein? Goblins tunnel into your dining room? Fill them in and hide them!  Of course, you'd be able to see normally in the 'd' menu. 

Although I like the 'no prospecting through smooth walls' thing.

Also, prospector(pro noble here) randomly picks spots to assay, and puts up signs.  Nothing is revealed, but there's a list of what trace minerals are in that spot.  (K) select, get the description of the sign, it says:

Gold, 20%
Aluminum 5%
Hematite 1%

And that gives you an idea of whether something is close or not.  20% might mean there is something in an adjoining square, 5% means within 10 squares, and 1% means 50 squares.

Jumping off here, as long as you've got these percentages figured, maybe you could use these to give a chance of receiving a trace mineral instead of or along with the main stone type of that tile. For example, if you were digging in limestone and there was a nearby hematite vein, you could get some ore occasionally.  This gets at what Nikov was saying about less-efficient mining techniques, too, and to compensate the sizes of the veins themselves could be decreased.

EDIT: minor typo fixed
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Othob Rithol

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 12:32:15 am »

I think Granite has a good idea with the traces idea. It reminds me of minesweeper.

Instead of the prospector magically saying " Me tinks there be magnetite to the east " the dwarf instead gives you a half dozen samples. You can then deduce that the concentration of magnetite is increasing as we head east past the dining hall, but drops off in the far eastern halls near the magma forge....hmm there must a cluster between to two.

This makes exploratory mining still necessary, but not as extensive as it is now.
No immersion gets broken, and no magical foresight is gained.
My fortress looks fine b/c the samples are not magically revealing tiles.
The @#%! might be wrong about the %s and lead me totally astray.

About the Noble: I get Impaler's objection about skill vs rank. But hear me out:
The Nobles are supposed to be a balance between useful abilities (manager's screen, book-keeping) and demands (wants an adamantine toilet in his tomb). Currently we have the stick, but no carrot.

I don't want a new noble to show up, but rather for the highest skilled member of your fort to take the role. Say one of you original 7 has been mining for 6 years. Now you have 8 miners including him/her. They decide to form a guild, Urist McOriginalMiner becomes the master. He now wants a better room, maybe a tomb, and needs an office. Upset Miners come to him. and he complains to the   Mayor.

Now here is where the compromise (Skill vs Rank) comes in: He is your BEST miner. Sprinkles granite into his plump flakes every morning. He knows the most about geology, and knows your mountain like  he knows his wife's beard.

Now in addition to mining (you don't lose all his functionality) he also does Guild work in his office (hears complaints) as well as occasionally picking a random unsmoothed wall to sample. Want him to do more prospecting? Just turn of the Mining labor.

Draco18s

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2008, 12:45:35 am »

Best prospector idea I've ever heard.
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Noctune9

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Re: Geological Survey, Exploratory blasting.
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2008, 07:58:33 am »

These ideas are really great. I think an unskilled prospector should make errors etc. For example he might say "I think there is gold near here" while in reality, there really isn't any gold near. As he gets more skilled, he might also be able to say if the stone/ore is beneath or above an area.
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