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Author Topic: Agents  (Read 2457 times)

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Agents
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 04:53:24 pm »

Jasonred79, did you play 3.09? Because as I remember it, that version was definitely NOT a game that was easy to win by bungling around.

If you won, it was probably because you were exploiting the overpowered income tools -- hacking (massive money for little effort) or selling expensive suits (even more massive money for grinding) -- and then putting your massive money into converting news anchor sleepers for $500 a day. Get about four, disband, and the game's won. I actually wrote a tutorial on how to beat it back in the day.

But if you don't know that, if you don't know any of the many ways you can totally break the game, the spirit of LCS has always, in the years I've played it, been that of Jefmajor's playthrough. You don't know what you're doing, you just do some stuff, it's fun while it lasts, and then you die or go to jail forever. You're never actually looking likely to win unless you've played it enough to figure out how to beat the system. That's how I expect people to play the game, and that's what a lot of the systems are designed to support.

With that said, the game is harder now, I agree. Here are the reasons I think it's more difficult:

1. It's true that interrogation is significantly tougher. It used to be a simple money sink where you'd trade cash for effectiveness. Revising the interrogation system to make it more like it is now was a very common request. Nowadays, I'm thinking it should actually be eased up a bit.

2. It's a lot harder to get really good Conservative only characters. Agents in particular used to be fairly easy to seduce and form into a large squads, and it wasn't uncommon to see the LCS holding off raids with 20+ agents with M16s holding the line. Apparently agents can't be seduced even at 20 seduction now, so that needs to be worked on as well.

3. You don't have infinite recruits. This is arguable, but this change was carefully calibrated to make the game more fun, not more hard. It reduces the incentives for some of the grinding. I took a poll awhile back and some 70% felt that the game was either more fun with recruitment caps, or it was no difference.

4. High end weapons are more deadly due to multiple shots per round, and there is body armor. SWAT teams, instead of normal police, do raids. This definitely favors more experienced players over new ones.

5. Money is harder to come by because a number of totally broken things were fixed, including sales of clothing and hacking income. There are actually some new ways to get lots of money though; the activation screen option to ask for donations is much more lucrative, and theft is substantially more rewarding. The other legal fundraising methods need to be buffed a bit.

6. A lot of bugs were fixed that favored players. For example, when you were attacked in a siege, the police would often walk straight past you in the opposite direction when you moved, not generating an encounter, even if you entered their tile. And of course you can't disband with four news anchor sleepers and expect to win.

I don't think juice is tougher -- Special Editions used to give everyone in the entire organization 50 juice, but that's it really. In fact, I believe juice gains were doubled across the board about a year ago. It's just more important, since it's tied to your squad size. This is to ensure you learn how to (and do) use the people you already have before you expand further.
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jasonred79

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Re: Agents
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 05:25:14 pm »

what.
So the spirit of LCS is you either bungle around... or you pick up the wiki and guides and find out how to break the game? ... that makes little sense to me. IMHO, a good game should have a learning curve of some sort... not a "either you pick up a guide or it's unwinnable"

I played (and won) a really ancient version of the game. Back in those days, there WAS no such thing as juice. You could win by bungling along because generally everything you did promoted the liberal agenda, as long as you didn't alienate the masses by accident. ... man, the nostaliga. That really was years and years ago.
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Coronel_Niel

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Re: Agents
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 05:32:43 pm »

I'm not sure about this, but in my playthrough, the police station and court room didn't have anywhere to house prisoners and I have about 11 relationships with the 20 seduction so if you haven't changed anything, its my playthrough.

The spirit of LCS is trying to combine long hard tactics with the fun of going out and killing people, all can be done ussing a mafia style gang member group armed with whatever you can find.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Agents
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 06:29:25 pm »

I didn't say anything about intending to have you break the game using the wiki and guides. Quite to the contrary, I've taken steps to avoid the things that break the game and remove game breaking strategies, adding instead new valid strategies and enhancing the viability of fun mechanics.

My objective is that you play, you explore, you bungle around and enjoy the game for the gameplay. As you play, you discover new ways to progress, and manage to get closer to succeeding. Eventually you understand the system well enough to win, and continue to explore new ways to play and new strategies, or move to telling stories and suggesting changes to the game.

This is the general arc of roguelikes in general, as well as Dwarf Fortress. Very hard game that is fun to play around with -> discover strategies that allow progress -> eventually master the game. I don't expect you to win your first couple of times playing, and I don't think that's the best thing for this game.

I'm not sure about this, but in my playthrough, the police station and court room didn't have anywhere to house prisoners and I have about 11 relationships with the 20 seduction so if you haven't changed anything, its my playthrough.

Neither did? That's really odd. Did you get a sleeper and check the in-game map for those locations (press m while on site) to make sure?

The seduction cap sounds like it's working as intended: 1 starting, plus 1 for every two points of skill. Let me know if that seemed weird.
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jasonred79

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Re: Agents
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 07:28:02 pm »

The seduction cap sounds like it's working as intended: 1 starting, plus 1 for every two points of skill. Let me know if that seemed weird.

Oh, so THAT'S how it works!!! Now I know! And knowing is half the battle! ... Now I can go seduce more people. hmm.

The thing is, there is hardly any info in the manual, so you just DON'T KNOW these things, and they are almost impossible to figure out intuitively or through trial and error. Look at jefmajor's playthorugh. During interrogation, he has no idea what he is doing. By the end of it, he still has no idea what he's doing.

Here's my challenge then. Introduce the game to 10 people who've never heard of it. My estimate is that 2 will give up because they like graphics and sound, and 6 will give up cause they can't figure out how to play the game. 1 person will scrounge up a walkthrough or guide, and only 1 person will actually learn the game through bungling and trial and error.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Agents
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 08:16:52 pm »

Here's my challenge then. Introduce the game to 10 people who've never heard of it. My estimate is that 2 will give up because they like graphics and sound, and 6 will give up cause they can't figure out how to play the game. 1 person will scrounge up a walkthrough or guide, and only 1 person will actually learn the game through bungling and trial and error.

Sounds about right, in the sense that I agree. I welcome your suggestions on how to make the game more clear.
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jasonred79

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Re: Agents
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 04:31:52 am »

The manual definitely needs to be updated, for one.
Hmm.... it would be really a lot of effort, but an in-game help file would be nice... nowadays even games like Civilization and Tradewinds and whatnots have a "?" button for people who are feeling overwhelmed and lost. LCS is probably complex enough to warrant one of those too.

The manual would be faster though. Just compile a few useful things from the wiki and forums, bundle them, and include them in the manual.
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