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[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by Karlito:
<STRONG>Well if that feature was in effect it would make this suggestion completely pointless.</STRONG>

This suggestion is an attempt to solve the wrong problem.  The problem is the inflexible way the game calculates rent.  Limiting item quality won't fix that; you'd have the same problem if you made all the rooms too big, or engraved them, or had a season where everyone was hauling rather than producing goods.

The idea of being able to crank out low-quality goods faster than masterworks is absurdly un-dwarven.  Notice how your Legendary Mason not only makes really good tables, but makes them faster than your Novice Mason could make crappy tables?  That's because they're dwarves.  The tradeoff between quality and speed is a human concept.

[mickel]

Barring magic, I think the tradeoff between quality and speed is a universal concept, not just a human one. It's an effect of the laws of physics. Doing something carefully always takes more time. A skilled worker will be able to do something carefully in the same time as an unskilled worker works as fast as they can, but that's another thing.

It might be, though, that humans - being more practically inclined - are more willing to do that tradeoff.

How about this, new suggestion: The ability to set how much time someone will spend on a work? Let's say three settings - fast, normal, and slow.

At the fast setting they'll cut corners and produce work faster, but below their average, and they'll get unhappy thoughts from the stress and lack of work satisfaction.

At medium they'll work like they do now. No quality modifiers and no mood modifiers.

At slow, they don't let go of the damn thing until they're goshdarned good and ready to do so. They produce work slowly and above average, and they might even get positive thoughts from being allowed to let their craftsdwarfship free rein.

[ May 24, 2008: Message edited by: mickel ]

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>How about this, new suggestion: The ability to set how much time someone will spend on a work? Let's say three settings - fast, normal, and slow.

At the fast setting they'll cut corners and produce work faster, but below their average, and they'll get unhappy thoughts from the stress and lack of work satisfaction.</STRONG>

The idea of a happiness penalty has been kicked around before.  First, it only works if happiness is fixed so that you can't get out of the penalty by just building a nice dining room.  When you pull this kind of stunt, there ought to be a genuine risk that your master smith will go psycho.

I think certain unhappy thoughts (including this one) should set the dwarf's happiness to a fixed negative level, and start a timer that suspends any positive thoughts, so that the dwarf is required to feel the pain for a while.  When the goblins kill your baby, it doesn't matter how good you were feeling before, or (at first) what's done to cheer you up.

Second, it ought to be clear that you're seriously messing up the order of things by doing this.  It shouldn't just be a "quality setting" that can be flipped over to "fast" and left there; it should be a special order from the manager interface (you order ten steel axes and specify "Rush Job"), delivered by the manager, at whom the affected dwarf gets mad as hell.  He'll still do the job, most likely, but if the morale hit turns him violent, the manager is likely to become a target.

Third, if the goal is to have a way to boost production in an emergency, maybe the special order should be "No Breaks".  There has been a lot of discussion about a way to suspend breaks, and the morale penalty for that would need to be similar.  If you order something made and specify "No Breaks", any dwarf who's able to do that job but is on break (or eating, drinking, or sleeping) would cancel his break and do the job.  We could have both, and even allow a "Rush Job/No Breaks" order, but at that point the risk of a tantrum would be pretty dire.

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>Barring magic, I think the tradeoff between quality and speed is a universal concept, not just a human one. It's an effect of the laws of physics. Doing something carefully always takes more time. A skilled worker will be able to do something carefully in the same time as an unskilled worker works as fast as they can, but that's another thing.</STRONG>

No, it is an effect of human psychology. A programmed robot can produce the same quality at top speed. depending on material even perhaps better quiality at higher speeds. In DF terms, dwarves might be more in the zone at higher skill and speed. Also, if dwarves are an artificing race in tune with their material and craft, their magic part of their artificing, then there're even more explanations for why the trade-off doesn't apply.

Also, most human mastercrafters can produce ouitstanding quality items faster than novices produce mediocre ones, so I'm not certain it is even an human trade-off. Adorning and bejeweling etc would of course take extra time (for us).

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>

No, it is an effect of human psychology. A programmed robot can produce the same quality at top speed. depending on material even perhaps better quiality at higher speeds. In DF terms, dwarves might be more in the zone at higher skill and speed. Also, if dwarves are an artificing race in tune with their material and craft, their magic part of their artificing, then there're even more explanations for why the trade-off doesn't apply.

Also, most human mastercrafters can produce ouitstanding quality items faster than novices produce mediocre ones, so I'm not certain it is even an human trade-off. Adorning and bejeweling etc would of course take extra time (for us).</STRONG>

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying it takes me more time to line up a perfect angle for a photography, taking in account light and other factors than it takes me to simply put up the camera and push the trigger only due to psychological reasons?

[Align]

If you're a master at the craft, setting up the camera and angle is a lot faster for you than it is for the novice to do the same thing with worse results. Doing a different thing can of course take less time for the novice.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>If you're a master at the craft, setting up the camera and angle is a lot faster for you than it is for the novice to do the same thing with worse results. Doing a different thing can of course take less time for the novice.</STRONG>

That wasn't what I was discussing though. I was talking about the time it takes for the same person to make a high quality job versus a low quality one, when someone objected that it takes the same person the same amount of time to do a job regardless of how well it's done - something which doesn't intuitively make sense to me.

[Align]

No, he (and you) said that it takes less time for a master to make a great item than it does for a novice to make a mediocre item.
(If the master went and made a mediocre item, that would probably be even faster.)

[Neonivek]

Ill try to explain it!!! *cue heroic music*

Usually the reason why novices make things faster then masters is because they do not go through the proper steps in order to make a good product.

However when they do go through the proper steps, you will notice the speed difference to the point where the Novice looks like they are standing still compared to the masters. The Masters also produce better works.

Dwarves always go through the proper steps to create an object no matter their skill, hense why Legends are much faster then Dabblers.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Neonivek:
<STRONG>Ill try to explain it!!! *cue heroic music*

Usually the reason why novices make things faster then masters is because they do not go through the proper steps in order to make a good product.

However when they do go through the proper steps, you will notice the speed difference to the point where the Novice looks like they are standing still compared to the masters. The Masters also produce better works.

Dwarves always go through the proper steps to create an object no matter their skill, hense why Legends are much faster then Dabblers.</STRONG>

Now I understand what you meant.

But, to illustrate my point. there is a difference between a chair and a throne. The former is something to sit on with three or more legs, and optionally a back. Even I can make one that works. With some practice I could make one of acceptable quality as well - but a trained furniture carpenter could make one much faster.

And that same furniture carpenter would take less time to make a chair - four legs, a back, and something to sit on - than he or she would take to make a throne - a large, highly ornamental piece of sitting furniture.

...and if I ordered a chair to be made for the next day, and instead got the delivery after three weeks, I would not be contented even if it was a throne. Actually, if I got the delivery on time but it was a throne, I'd still not be contented since I ordered a chair.

Maybe that's where I differ from dwarfs. They don't care what it is, as long as it's made of gold.   :p