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[slink]

I will ask the practical question first.  I have noticed that some people have put many additional instruments and toys in their mods.  What effect does that have on fulfilling mandates?

The philisophical question is really broader than just modding.  It is about the domestic animals available on the embark screen.  I was looking at the mods with additional animals, and while I am in favor in general of adding more diversity, I wondered if Dwarves would really be keeping all of those.  Then it occurred to me to wonder why they had horses and cows in their delvings.  I mean, the embark screen offers plump helmets as the only plants, and only the subterranean seedstock.  The animals available seem to reflect the surface biome to which you are travelling rather than subterranean lifeforms.  Surely Mountainhome has not got camels wandering about the peaks?  I am not complaining, mind you.  I am wondering how people fit this into their mental image of Dwarven life in the parent culture.

[Deon]

The first question: it you're required to make "crafts", it's ok. If it's a specific item... Well, the hillarity is ensured.

The second question: dwarves have only subterranean farming in their entity file, thus they cannot embark with aboveground seeds.
However they also have    [COMMON_DOMESTIC_PACK] ,  [COMMON_DOMESTIC_PULL], [COMMON_DOMESTIC_MOUNT], [COMMON_DOMESTIC_PET] which make them to use horses and the like.

[slink]

On #1:  I can't recall ever being asked to make a generalized craft item.  It has always been "scepters" or "puzzleboxes" or the like.  I suspected it would make fulfilling mandates much more difficult.   

On #2:  Yes, that is the mechanics, but how do we explain it to ourselves? 

I suppose if there are to be Dwarven caravans then they must use draft animals and pack animals.  The mountainhome, having settled various new locations in the history file before your seven embark on their journey of colonization, must have already discovered and mastered the concept of using large, surface, animals for carrying goods.  To use these animals as beasts of burden, they must have learned how to feed them, and incidentally, breed them.  This would lead to learning to eat them to deal with the excess stock.  They have obviously not learned to milk them (and yes, some people do milk horses).

So why haven't they discovered the concept of growing, eg, whip vines, since they love whip vine wine so much?  Herbalism is a skill your Dwarves can embark with, so they do know how to gather surface plants.  Why have they not taken the simple step of planting the seeds, as your seven will do?

One explanation could be that the soil is not adequate for this activity at the mountainhome.  I did a little research, and my mountainhome for one of my fortresses does have some badlands nearby, so they have some surface soil.  I could not embark there, though.  Apparently one cannot embark onto a location which contains an active city of one's own culture.  So, I cannot spy upon them and see if they are in fact growing whip vines but just not telling parties who go forth to colonize.   

[Deon]

Well, it's mostly about preferences. They just DON'T grow anything above ground, although they could.

An example may be found in real life: some town with mines may know how to chop trees and use them as fuel but it uses coal instead because it's more abundant while the trees are there too.

Also currently we don't have "working" NPC dwarven forts, they are just holes in the ground, so when it comes through the caravan arc to some kind of real settlement arc, then we'll see.

P.S. But my answer was 100% correct since it's the Modding forum and I've answered how it works from the mod's perspective .

[BlazingDav]

I can imagine that if the modding tags ever get more elaborate being able to designate animals as common subterranean domestics would be a must for dwarves, but then what would pull the caravans and be loaded upon, though admittedly entering the fantasy realm dwarves would probably have mounts they tamed from underground rivers and caves, chasms and bottomless pits like... giant cave spiders?

[LegoLord]

Plump helmet spawn isn't the only seed you can embark with - it's the only plant, for who knows what reason, but there are plenty of other plant seeds you can get.  Cave wheat, dimple cup spawn, rock nuts.  There's plenty down there for the livestock.

[slink]

There's those little subterranean cattle that dark elves use, if we had dark elves.  Those would work as subterranean beasts of burden.  I have no problem with them using surface animals for surface travel, though.  I was trying to make a personal mental picture of Dwarves that included sheep and geese, that simultaneously excluded having surface crops with which to embark.

One point might be that all of the cities of your parent culture are 3x3.  On a 3x3 basis, mountainhome might be all mountainous terrain.  Then the complete lack of surface crops would be perfectly understandable.

The reason I asked this in the modding section is because I am looking at mods that offer a wide variety of plants and animals that are not normally associated with what I think of as Dwarves.  Plants pose no problem because the surface varieties don't show up on the embark screen.  All of the domestic animals do, though, and I wondered how people fit, eg, sheep and geese into Dwarven lifestyle as depicted in DF.  The answer is probably that they don't fit unless you think of them as exotic pets for which they probably would qualify to people living exclusively underground.

The nice thing about a game with such an open modding interface is that everyone can make it into whatever they like.  I think that is a wonderful thing.  It certainly would be nice to have more elaborate tags to distinguish Dwarven common domestic animals (ie, beasts of burden and working animals) from everyone else's, but at least now I can rationalize seeing waterfowl offered at embark.   

[LegoLord]

Animals aren't plants though.  Unlike plants, a creature that lives above ground can live underground, and probably isn't as ferocious as the underground critters in DF.

[slink]

Plump helmet spawn isn't the only seed you can embark with - it's the only plant, for who knows what reason, but there are plenty of other plant seeds you can get.  Cave wheat, dimple cup spawn, rock nuts.  There's plenty down there for the livestock.

I never said only plump helmet seeds were offered.   

Animals aren't plants though.  Unlike plants, a creature that lives above ground can live underground, and probably isn't as ferocious as the underground critters in DF.

Indeed animals are not plants.  And a duck is not a creature of caves.  Nevertheless, I can see it being kept as an exotic pet, so I can proceed with that.   

[Deon]

it's the only plant, for who knows what reason

I think because of the EDIBLE_RAW.

[Lancensis]

I've been trying to get dwarves to use cave creatures only for a while. Problem is, that while you can give an animal [COMMON_DOMESTIC] and [SUBTERRANEAN_CHASM], you'd have to remove [COMMON_DOMESTIC] from every other domestic animal you'd want to exclude, and then the humans wouldn't be able to use them unless they had the USE_ANY_PET_RACE in their entity file. I've also had cases of the humans offering me my adorable cave owls, which they shouldn't really have. I think it's because I put [LARGE_ROAMING] on them, figuring they wouldn't spawn without the population data, and the humans must've found them in a nearby cave.

Ideally I'd want dwarves to be able to embark with subterranean animals ONLY, humans to trade traditional barnyard animals ONLY, and elves to trade whatever they could get their fisherberry-stained fingers on, but I think I'll have to compromise somehow.

Incidentally, do not put [FLIER] and [VERMINHUNTER] on the same creature unless you want them to do to your FPS what a cat does to a rodent.

[forsaken1111]

I never said only plump helmet seeds were offered.   

I mean, the embark screen offers plump helmets as the only plants, and only the subterranean seedstock.

What you said was easy to misread, so his mistake is understandable.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i usually mod in cave pigs and cave goats, i think they're the most dwarven livestock, and only use those animals, and dogs and cats, those are versatile and small, and could as easilly live on caves as they live in our homes today. it annoys me a lot when a migrant brings some intruder species to my home

now that i think of it, i havent trained an army of war cave rams in a long time 

[Lancensis]

Heh. I've got Badgers instead of dogs, and burrowing owls instead of cats. I'm thinking of adding Pit Ponies too, depressing as they were historically and I gave ferrets some consideration. I find the problem is coming up with something that is happy enough underground, but that dwarves wouldn't hate. I guess giant moles might have made some sense, but I find dwarves getting along with enormous darkling beetles a bit odd. Or riding around on cave wetas.