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[Neonivek]

So as we all know I am quite insane, so insane I bothered to do this suggestion. Now it likely was already suggested but I couldn’t find anything. I apologise for how this suggestion appears.

For a while I saw suggestions about lost civilisations, Immortals with spare time, and even Armageddon. These have something in common in that they all involve species and civilisations coming into being and dying off.

BIRTH AND EXTINCTION

For both Civilisations and Races there should be two tags with two numbers each.

[Emerge:####:####]
And
[Decline:####:####]

The two numbers are specifically there to give a range. Once a race or civilisation hit’s the Decline they begin to die out until they become extinct usually within 100 years. The game should be able to come up with reasons for this decline such as diseases, war, loss of food supply, cannot reproduce, or even loss of intelligence or perhaps it should be up to the RAWs.

It would be interesting as well to include a sort of decline where a species simply transforms into another.

As well other triggers for Emergence would be interesting. A Megabeast that prevents the emergence of a Undead civilisation of total destruction would make great story, or perhaps after killing the Goblins the trolls will emerge as a major race.

[Emerge:Death:Megabeast]
[Emerge:Decline:Civilisation]

It could even conceivably work with decline as well. (Perhaps the Demon king is all that is keeping the demons in this world)

CIVILISATION DEPENDENT CASTE

So you just created a dinosaur race of great intelligence but you don’t want them to die off but become a lesser race or even roving band of monsters. One of the Caste requirements could be that they are part of a civilisation or a specific Civilisation.

So as long as the Dinosaur people were born into their civilisation they would retain their intelligence. If they are somehow tamed by a Fortress the children could somehow gain the intelligence of their ancestors. It represents a great potential for intelligence but a sort of cut-off point where their minds will no longer seek to tap into those levels of intelligence.

Other caste effects such as intelligence tied to “Year” would be interesting.
-Note: I realise that intelligence doesn’t actually change that much in real life. This is speaking of intelligent in terms relative to technology.

EXCEPTIONS TO TOTAL DEATH

As always there should be exceptions to these kinds of total destruction. Spherical Lands and Deep Caves all should provide possible ways for creatures to survive their extinction.

Civilisations can survive if they somehow form entirely different civilisations by becoming separated from the main civilisation, becoming members of another civilisation, or if they are particularly long lived they can become hermits
-This doesn’t allow them to survive “Species Extinction”

As well there should be several tags that can highlight some more forced forms of survival. Possible ways include:
1) [Ignore(Decline)###]: This allows a percent to ignore a decline
2) [Cave Dweller(Decline)]: This forces them to become a Cave dweller upon their decline
3) [HFS(Decline)]: Spoilers!
4) [Sphere:Sphere:Decline] This forces them to become a spherical creature upon their decline
-Note: Technically decline could be replaced with Emerge. Ignoring Emerge could be an interesting mechanic. In fact someone wanting a more random setting could simply put a large number of “Ignore Emerge” creatures and civilisations (lets say 100 Civilisations but only a 5% of each one emerging).

Id like some sort of mechanic for a species or civilisation to in a way cheat death by defeating the cataclysm that will befall then. I just don’t know how it would work. This would especially make for great gameplay where an Adventurer or Fortress is fighting against the cataclysm.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

Alright so some of you are probably wondering what in the world is all this for. Well here Ill present examples of how this could be applied.

Prehistoric Ages:
A massive restructuring of every creature and civilisation can allow you to create an artificial Prehistoric age. By allowing Dinosaurs to exist first and civilisations

Elder Race:
By allowing one Civilisation to exist first, such as elves, and others to come into existence later. They will start out with more wealth and experience then the other civilisations.

Lost Civilisation:
Like the above except this civilisation dies our, or begins to die out, before the other the other civilisations emerge.

The Destroyers:
So you want to Demons to begin to take over the world but you don’t want them to actually take over the world before the player has anything to do about it. Why don’t we set up their emergence a bit before world generation stops? That way the all powerful demon race will emerge to threaten the entire world and best of all the player actually has a say in the matter.

Ragnerok:
Maybe you clearly want the world to end at a certain date and time. Why don’t you set some sort of ultimate megabeast with an entourage of (semi)mega beasts to emerge upon that date and rain death upn everyone.
-Along with possible Emergence triggers it would probably be better.

Total Destruction:
So the Elves have died, should nature continue to exist? Why not set all the trees and animals to begin to die off once the Elves have fallen

-------

Overall my major issue with all this is that it can seem somewhat artificial. I just don’t know how to get this suggestion working without a tinge of artificiality.

Please contribute and thank you for reading.

[Fieari]

The problem with this suggestion is that it goes against the philosophy of DF-- emergent behavior.  The game as a whole is moving AWAY from hard coded anything, and moving towards a set of rules that exhibits the behavior desired.  So you wouldn't have a rule to force a civ to die, you'd set up situations that would CAUSE civs to die.  Such as war, or famine, or disease, or culture assimilation, or whatever causes the civ to fall.  And it wouldn't be given a hard date, it would happen because the causes happened.

[Neonivek]

The problem with this suggestion is that it goes against the philosophy of DF-- emergent behavior.  The game as a whole is moving AWAY from hard coded anything, and moving towards a set of rules that exhibits the behavior desired.  So you wouldn't have a rule to force a civ to die, you'd set up situations that would CAUSE civs to die.  Such as war, or famine, or disease, or culture assimilation, or whatever causes the civ to fall.  And it wouldn't be given a hard date, it would happen because the causes happened.

I mostly made this suggestion as a way to include many of the other suggestions and wishes people came up with over the years. People wanted to include a Prehistory, Ancient Races, and even Ragnerok.

Though this isn't to say that Dwarf Fortress is ever going to move entirely away from hard coded behavior. At best Dwarf Fortress uses the hard coded to guide emergent behavior. So if a Dwarf Civilisation happens to hate poison then assuming nothing happens the Dwarf Civ should hate poison. Should something happen it should change

Also it is tough to set some things up: such as extinction or Evolution... without some of these aspects. A Truely advanced and powerful Civilisation won't fall to anything that couldn't easily take over the world itself, and the way the game is set up a race never "loses" technology.

The goal of the discussion truely is supposed to be finding ways to impliment these without the feeling of artificiality or while allowing some amount flexability.

-----

Ok so looking at what you have written down are you suggesting that you could include series of Disasters for species and civilisations to befall them with the intent of killing them off? Though once again there is an inherant difficulty in doing it without some hard code flexability. How do you have a Prehistory period without uttarly overwhelming the player or including a "False" prehistory?

[smjjames]

I see what you're getting at, the rise and fall of civilizations. Cultures don't always become extinct (it does happen though) as they can become assimilated or simply evolve. Look at the Chinese, their civilization has gone through its rises and falls (dynansties, the mongol invasions, and stuff that happened in the last few centuries.

I think having civilizations rise and fall is a neat idea here, we have plenty of conquered civilizations, but no new ones ever appear. There are plenty of ways for that to happen, civil wars, new colonies (points at England (Not accusing you Brits of anything, just using you as an example )), survivors from vanquished civs, and probably more. At least no new organized central governments as the way the local governments work vs the civilization as a whole resembles the feudal system. Since the timespan can be up to 10,000 years, which is longer than recorded history, I think it may have potential.

Although since players generally stop worldgen during the first few centuries for the megabeasts, it may not be noticeable.

Edit: Actually, I may be thinking differently from the OP, but along the same vein of having civilizations rise and fall over time.

[Granite26]

Rises and falls are something of a culture thing, aren't they?  I mean, the peasants are always peasants, and histories dating seems off.

I think I'd be happier with a decadence mechanic that encouraged new civs at the cost of older ones (simple a boost to units patriotism and willingness to breed could cover it).

Elder races could be modeled similarly.  Start them with a ton of civs and cities, but give them congenital diseases and whatnot such that they rapidly fail (with genetics,  you should be able to create a trinity of genes that kills the bearer, allowing the three genes to spread through the culture at first, but then cripple the birth rate when they have.)

I like the thought of being able to add civs later on.  Maybe set emergence dates for the various races? (0-100 years?), also, the ability to reseed civs if they die out (or just too quickly).

[Neonivek]

I think I'd be happier with a decadence mechanic that encouraged new civs at the cost of older ones

That could work too. Slower Breeding rate, slower production (less money), less ability to recover from war, infighting, smaller armies, and all that. If done right it is reasonable (or possibly some sort of enhanced decandence for some races) that the lesser races, ordinary disasters, or diseases, could fall even a powerful and advanced nation.

Rome was defeated by Barbarians who paled in comparison to the might of Rome at full strength in both technology and strategic might.

The people of Easter Island fell because they used up all their resources and perished. (which is quite common)

Certain civilisations though would be more resistant to decendence then others.

It would also allow for much more interesting prehistory. Currently Civilisations are pretty much bound to exist forever unless taken out quite early. Having almost all the civilisations fall and be replaced by another (or change into a lesser civilisation) would certainly be interesting and it would give a much organic realisation for war.

Cultures don't always become extinct (it does happen though) as they can become assimilated or simply evolve

The trick is how do you get those Ancient civilisations that either fall into nothing or disapear off the face of the earth. For example the Lizardmen in Dungeons and Dragons are a Tribal civilisation and are quite savage, In the past (in some settings) they were in fact a very advanced race who still had technology greater then what is currently available.

Though it is far more common for these "Ancients" to actually be another race.

So I guess what I can take here is that the game should have a mechanic that Nomads or Towns without available technology from the capital or hinterland or people who know how to build it, it should lose that technology. Nomads shouldn't settle, build a town, and somehow be no worse off then before.

[sproingie]

I think the entire concept of a "rise" or "fall" of any civilization is entirely too ambiguous to see it as a single arc.  Rome took centuries to "fall", and in the meantime saw its borders expand to an unprecedented scale.  Ultimately it wasn't even so much defeated by barbarians so much as many of its provinces were simply settled by tribal migrations as had been the norm for millenia. Rome itself may have been sacked, but that had happened plenty of times before, including by vanquished foes like the Carthaginians. 

Dwarf Civilizations fall much quicker due to tantrum spirals

[Granite26]

Well, if you posit a mechanic whereby actors can change cultures, you start to go places.  Think less the fall of Rome and more the rise of Protestantism/spread of Christianity.  The culture(religion, in this case) of the populace was presumed to be what the leaders said it was.  If the feudal leaders of your civ (think dukes and barons, not kings and emperors) start abandoning your culture for another civs because you don't bind them together anymore, your civ/culture will die out WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL PERSON DYING.

Galactic Civ had some neat (albeit gamey) ways of doing this.  History is ripe with examples of people 'going native' or 'putting on airs'

Just track cultural influence from a civs capitol, and if a city is taken over by another influence, it might rebel or break away.  Too many at once, and the civ suddenly can't put down the breakaways.  Eventually the breakaways influence the capitol again.

This has an added advantage in that it can also be used to impliment Constantine as the first Christian (of a different culture) emperor, as well as any number of interesting goblin things.

[Funk]

maybe we can get small groups or lone Race/civ holdouts liveing 30+ after there civ died like Hiroo Onoda still fighting ww2 29 after the end.
bigger groups may try to rebuild there civ.

quick guide:
1 lone civ member made by runing away,left for dead on the battle field(hungery elves beware)runaway slaves
2 civ members group up in to small groups if thay can
3 thay try to move to some where tomake a base to live/hide i.e.any biome  thay can live in
5 build the base.
6 than thay try to take fight there foes if thay see any,build a big base,get more civ members by births,kidnap,other civ groups(dont have be the same civ just hate the same civ\s)

[darkflagrance]

If you read battles in Legend Mode, you always see that when cities fall some inhabitants randomly flee into the swamps.

Unfortunately, the way the game works is that they simply vanish from history at that point. Thus, the previous poster's mechanic would allow these survivors to continue as a part of history. It would be nice to see that random elf who survived the fall of Twistedwinds go on to found a new empire and drive out the goblins.

[Granite26]

Or just be living in a cave just on the other side of the dune sea from your character's starting location... <eg>

[Neonivek]

Heck Nomads could give rise to civilisations forming in areas they normally dont like deserts, Caves, and especially Spherical lands.

[Hummingbird]

Well, if you posit a mechanic whereby actors can change cultures, you start to go places.  Think less the fall of Rome and more the rise of Protestantism/spread of Christianity.  The culture(religion, in this case) of the populace was presumed to be what the leaders said it was.  If the feudal leaders of your civ (think dukes and barons, not kings and emperors) start abandoning your culture for another civs because you don't bind them together anymore, your civ/culture will die out WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL PERSON DYING.

Galactic Civ had some neat (albeit gamey) ways of doing this.  History is ripe with examples of people 'going native' or 'putting on airs'

Just track cultural influence from a civs capitol, and if a city is taken over by another influence, it might rebel or break away.  Too many at once, and the civ suddenly can't put down the breakaways.  Eventually the breakaways influence the capitol again.

This has an added advantage in that it can also be used to impliment Constantine as the first Christian (of a different culture) emperor, as well as any number of interesting goblin things.

I really like the idea of this, but this assumes that civs would have clearly distinct cultures with specific elements that could be transmitted or disagreed upon; otherwise we'd have to resort to gameyness like a numerical value for "culture" that affects distance of "influence" (I'm thinking primarily Civilization here). 

Some elements of culture:
1.  Heroes, and associated history/legends
2.  Religion type, gods (or lack thereof)
3.  Morality, e.g. cutting trees, making trophies from corpses of sapients
4.  Dominant sphere

...and lots of other stuff I haven't thought of.  Ideally, critters will choose between cultures by which of these elements resonate with them, based on their lives, personalities, place in society, etc.  If a culture becomes "outmoded," another one will take its place. 

[Granite26]

Take Italian immigrants to America in the late 1800s

They arrive in droves, speak Italians, and consider themselves to be 'Italians' living in a different country.

The 'Italian' Cultural identity, made up of the perceived amalgomation of the 'Italian' citizenry still considers them to be a part of it.

As the immigrants become accultured to 'American' culture, the immigrants, 1 by 1 shift from being 'Italians who live in America' to 'Italian-Americans' who view themselves as a subgroup of 'American' culture.


The important elements :
1:  A culture exists and has a name
2:  People can leave a culture and join another
3:  Cultures can change over time, without people leaving or joining.
4:  Cultures represent the averages of their members, not hard values


Other things to think about:

Early Romans converting to Christianity:  (Many mores changed, but not all,  The culture conversions changed the country itself)

Outliers and Far-X groups.  As group X starts to drift more extreme, the moderates decide to leave the culture, making the group even more extreme.  Basically, you start alienating more and more people, until your group is just a couple of crazies.  This mechanic could be used to start new movements with a charismatic leader.  As time passes, the charismatic leader holds the mores to his mores.  When he dies, the group starts to drift with the majority opinion of members (which was defined by the charismatic leader, so there's no snap when he dies).  The group will either stay close to the middle (and gain lots of followers) or drift quickly off.  Either way, the effect is a top, spinning about itself.

[Craftling]

Most civilizations have collapsed after their empire has runout of/become too far from food. The Roman empire, the Egyptians, the Sumarians etc.