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Author Topic: MUDs Discussion Thread  (Read 11232 times)

Sappho

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2009, 06:22:29 am »

Until very recently (now that I'm trying Discworld), the only MUD I had ever played for more than 10 minutes was Necromium.  It's not particularly impressive overall.  It's fairly large, and none of the areas are stock, but most of them are either DnD-style, bad jokes, or pop culture references.  The only real activity in the game is fighting and it's very grindy.  I never got particularly far in the game because after a while I'd get tired of killing the same monsters over and over again, but I kept going back to it.

Why?  Because I never felt lost in this game.  The main city was fairly small - small enough to learn your way around very quickly - but it had everything you needed.  Every new character has the option to go through a newbie tutorial which showed you around the main city, how to find your soul once you've died, where the different guilds were and how to join and advance in them, where the newbie donation area was, and everything else a newbie could possibly need to know.  Beyond that, the players were extremely helpful and there was always someone willing to answer your questions, and there was a fantastic mapping system - I could always see where I was.  I am a very visual person and being able to see exactly where things are is very important to me, even in a game.

As far as actual gameplay and content go, Discworld wins hands down.  But the introductory tutorial in Pumpkin Town just isn't enough.  Sure, you learn some of the basic commands, but then you are plopped down either in the middle of the biggest city in the game or, worse, in some smaller place with fewer options, with no easy way to get your bearings.  Sure, you have the automap, which does help, but in a city this large, it's no simple matter to figure out where you are and where you need to go with just one glance at the map.  Even hints and spoilers say things like "go to Holofernes street" and then you have to spend ten minutes scouring the enormous map to try to find that street and plan a route to get there. 

Just finding your guild when you want to join it (and figuring out how to join it) is a huge challenge.  And sure, in Pumpkin Town you learn how to attack things, but there is absolutely no advice on what you should attack once you're into the game, where to go to learn to fight, or other ways to advance.  Even after I managed to figure out how to join my guild, the guild leader NPC simply said "get to it!" and asking for help from other players resulted in links to web sites.  I have to read through entire web sites just to figure out what to do in my guild!  I really feel like there could be more information given to players in-game, rather than making us all blindly grope around until we stumble into something useful.

And so far, even the quests seem unreasonably difficult.  Even after reading the full spoiler on the Discworld site about the baker quest in Ankh-Morpork, I can't figure out how to solve it.  The spoiler says things like "experiment with different amounts of ingredients until some bread appears."  First I have to walk to the other side of the city to buy one ingredient, then all the way back to randomly throw ingredients at the oven, and when I fail, I have to walk all the way to the other side of the city again to buy more of this other ingredient...  In the end I stormed out of the bakery spitting and cursing about quests where the solution is "try throwing different amounts in the pot until something works!"

It's been years since I've logged into Necromium.  I wonder how it's doing recently.  The web site hasn't been updated in two years, so I guess probably not much has been added, but it does appear to be online.  Maybe I should stop in so I can shake off this feeling of being completely lost in a gigantic maze for a little while.

Rhodan

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2009, 09:41:11 am »

Bah, I've never even attempted the baker quest, I think you also need skills for that, it's not a very newbie-friendly quest.
XP rewards for quests are new, too.  People used to just do them for the title and bragging rights.

The witches guild is a very hard guild to start in.  It's halfway across the Disc from the main city, it uses a different currency than the main city, it's region is dangerous to roam around in because of vertical challenges, and the skills you get only get really useful later on.  Other guilds often have their own shops and are located in a more civilised location.
Good stuff to kill early are mostly children and beggars.

The cities are really huge on the Disc, but they are also very logical in terms of distances and directions.  If you're looking for a street, it's quite easy to just head along a different street or just keep going southeastish and check your map again when you think you''re nearby.
I've seen MUDs where the cities were 10 rooms big, but the only way to get anywhere was by memorizing "w;w;ne;s;e;n;w;s".  On the Disc, I just go "Oh, Chrononthologos Street is somewhere on the northeast side of the river?  I'll just walk in that general direction and have a look."
Being lost on the Disc feels like being lost in an actual city.  Except Sto Lat, silly Sto Lat.  I swear it used to be rectangular.

The newbie tutorial is quite new.  The old one was terrible, it didn't even have proper directional exits to navigate it.  The bit about not knowing where to go next is true.  The helpful street urchin in the Drum can give you basic directions, but probably not for witches.

Advice: Kill children and beggars as soon as you can take them.  Go to other towns to see if there are other NPCs you can take on (but inform yourself of local laws first).   Decide if you want to wack people with your broom, or would rather carry an extra weapon.  The less weight you carry the better, but a sword might prove better than a broom.
You cannot learn more than 10 levels of fighting from the witches' guild leader. Granny teaches only witches magic, same goes for any other guild.  You can teach fighting to yourself or learn it from other players.
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Sappho

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2009, 09:55:07 am »

Are there any rules against having more than one character?  Maybe I'd be better off starting fresh with an easier guild before putting too much effort into my witch.  It would be nice if there were some indication in the beginning about which guilds are newbie-friendly...

Rhodan

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2009, 10:03:29 am »

You can have as many characters as you wish.  You can even exchange items an money between your characters, though you're not supposed to go overboard with this.  Don't be your own economy and you'll be fine.

Easy guilds: Anything that has a fighting primary.  Thieves and warriors are both excellent.
Priests tend to be slightly hardish, but I have no experience with them.  They don't seem to be too hard as they have very accessible guildhouses.
Wizards, witches and assassins are considered to be the hardest.  Assassins mostly because of the PK requirement, but the skills they can learn are quite useful.
I've started as a wizard and didn't have too much difficulty, it was quite slow at first but you have a great guildhouse and easy access to weak spells to start killing with.  The few times I tried witching, well, it was really hard.  Especially since I usually chose to be a foreign witch so I didn't even speak the language.
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Sappho

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2009, 10:11:46 am »

Is there any reasonable way to advance in this game without having to kill people on the streets?  I've never liked that about MUDs - that you start by killing children, old people, and beggars, and work your way up to more dangerous foes.  I'm fine with killing off vermin and dangerous animals, but just for once I'd like to have a character who doesn't wander the streets killing an endless stream of strangers and burying their corpses in mass graves.

Starver

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2009, 10:47:53 am »

You can have as many characters as you wish.  You can even exchange items an money between your characters, though you're not supposed to go overboard with this.  Don't be your own economy and you'll be fine.
Note that playing multiple characters at the same time should first of all not be possible, and is otherwise a no-no if you get around those restrictions and get found out.  It's fair play for items to be gifted remotely, by whatever means, though.  I personally try to maintain a Chinese Wall between all characters, inclusive of knowledge gained.  But that's an extreme POV.


Quote
Priests tend to be slightly hardish, but I have no experience with them.  They don't seem to be too hard as they have very accessible guildhouses.
The Ankh-Morpork temple to Fish isn't near the others (clustering in the 'faith quarter', as it were), but didn't seem to suffer too much from lack of recruits last time I thought to do a head-count, cross-compared with city of origin.

No idea how many of those are true-newbies who stumbled in, entranced by the write-up on the descriptions of each god, or just new-characters by those expanding their 'portfolio' of experience, but my most senior current character became a Fishite as a newbie, having not played for nearly a decade, i.e. since before the creation of the terrains and reorganisation of Ankh-Morpork, on top of everything else, so I was definitely green before I decided to turn aquamarine. :)

@Sappho: Doing nothing will earn you some XP.  Going to new places will earn you XP (though be careful in places that have warnings up, e.g. The Shades/Snail/Medina, and go too far out into the 'wilds' and you may find dangerous creatures like yeti).  Using various commands (especially your guild-specific ones and various craft-related ones you can pick up, type "commands" to see if you have any of those) that are GP-using will return you some XP (teaching skills will also give you XP, but that's probably not realistic when you're low on the ladder).

Frexample, a priest can pray, exchanging Guild Points for a proportionate amount of XP.  Although repeatedly praying will give reduce that proportion, so doing other things as well is advisable (different rituals, and different activities like sneaking/watching when you have enough GP to spend some on the non-faith activity concerned).

A lot of new players these days start up by finding (or stumbling upon) quests that these days give XP (indeed, they didn't use to, but they once did before that), and while I never did chase those (and tend not to use knowledge from one character to help another character along), there is now (a fairly recent change) an official quest hint/list thingy that a newbie could use.  (IIRC, my first completed quest in the 'modern' era, beyond the newbie area of the time, was "Polite Shopper".  I'd not even realised it was one.  But, then again, that was back when there wasn't XP either, just the CCCs).

I can think of one more way to get XP, and there's also the TM (TaskMaster) system where something you do (or try to do, but are on the edge of) enough may trigger a skills upgrade in the leaf (or one of the leafs) of the skills tree that the skill uses, which is XP-saving.  (One non-priest character of mine never advanced any faith-tree skill, but through mending the odd piece of clothing at the altar of Gapp ended up with a level of fa.po well into the double digits.  Though as he never intends to use faith, this might be considered useless for anything other than the next time he tries to mend clothes at the altar of Gapp. :))
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ILikePie

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2009, 11:47:15 am »

Are there any rules against having more than one character?  Maybe I'd be better off starting fresh with an easier guild before putting too much effort into my witch.  It would be nice if there were some indication in the beginning about which guilds are newbie-friendly...
Typing "refresh totally" will wipe your charectar and send back to pumpkin town, this way you can restart and keep your name (Deleting your charectar will not allow to reuse its name).

I have this Jeanie thing logged on in the Discworld website, but I don't know any Jeanies, any idea on what this may be? (I asked on channel one and they said it a bug, I'll contact an admin later)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 12:02:06 pm by ILikePie »
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Starver

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2009, 05:02:11 am »

I have this Jeanie thing logged on in the Discworld website, but I don't know any Jeanies, any idea on what this may be? (I asked on channel one and they said it a bug, I'll contact an admin later)
It's just a bug, if it's what I think you mean.  From what I understand (not having access ot the code behind the web-site/etc) I would presume it's easy problem to solve, but given that it hasn't been probably means that the area of conflict does something ComplicatedTM which means that it isn't so easy.  However, it doesn't affect anything of note (except that you get a link to a random user's 'finger' info), so you can ignore it for all intents and purposes.  It will correct itself almost immediately (the next click on the page, usually), and doesn't mean that you can post/view as that person or otherwise do kranky things to the system.

Consider it a serendipitous "friend-finder".  Every now and then it produces the name of someone random, and lets you link immediately to their Finger info so you can get to know about them, then next time you see them logged in you can stalk themsay hello! :)
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MrWiggles

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2009, 05:48:28 am »

I tried a mush for a while many years ago.  It took me a while to understand that it wasn't really a game, it was just a structure for people to roleplay.  There was no combat and there were no challenges.  Want something to exist?  You just create it.  You could make your own house, however you want, containing whatever you want.  You could make your own world if you wanted to.  Once I realized that, I left and never went back.

Maybe not all mushes are like that, but it didn't feel like a game at all to me, just a structure for roleplaying and telling stories.  If that's what you're into, then I guess it's cool, but I was looking for a game.

Yea, some of are very free form. I tend to stay away from those. I agree, that the sense of challenge, and sense of accomplishment isn't there. Most of those eventually turn into this odd quasi meta OOC/IC social thing. Nice and fun, but not really a game.

the TFOS Mux comes close to doing that, but it manages to to cling to its system with the admins doing various nifty TPs through the week.

I tend to choose games that have a system, and control what players and may not have, it never gets to the anal detail of a Mud, but that a far secondary concern, and Mushes are for role playing primarily. If you dont like to role play, then you wont like most mushes.

In general, they have some sense of in character, out of character separations rules, and in character actions equals in character consequence. How anal they with these vary, and how serve the punishment for breaking also very.

I remember when I was on a B5 Mush, I had a private eye/mercenary character. Some PC arranged to rub one of the implied stores, and an admin ran the scene for them, and they managed to get their goods. The store they robbed hired me track them down, and get back the goods. I tracked them down, and probably would have killed them, if I was able to without permission.

Since they stole diamonds, my plan to get back the goods, was to simple blow up the building. It would disable all the thieves, and leave the goods in tact more or less. It was a really fun scene, everyone had a good time. The game didnt have code  set up in place to bomb a building, it was done with semi consent through out. I walked with the thief's out of the character, on how I would go about rigging the bombs, and when, with an admin casually there. We worked out how the scene would good based on a few small RPs. I was smart, I got lucky with my skill checks, and the thieves PC didnt feel cheated out of their diamonds.

I got a nice finical backer from it, allowed me to get some expensive items with a line of credit from the diamond store owners. My character got some nifty villains out of it. We had some excellent rps where we faced off with one another. None of it out of spite.

I felt like my character had his own story, that was unique to only me. On a mud, I find that you could simply replace me with joe whatever, since it doesn't matter how many of this mob I vanquish, or items I get. A personal impact really doesn't happen. The above character managed to turn his one man operation into sizable private security firm, with 7 and 8 other players under him. I left the game due to RL stuff, and I came back, I saw that my company was still their, when I read the game history, it made impacts on the game world, to players started after I had to leave. When I walked the grid, and was active on pubchan, there a few players that wanted to know if I was spoofing or really that guy.

You can gain a sense of fame, or infamy on a mud, but that not because when you leave the players are affected thereafter, but simply because grinded forever and day.
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Rabek Jeris

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2009, 12:03:10 pm »

For those who prefer roleplay, but who also like the code support of a MUD (as opposed to a MUSH), and who don't mind playing a game that's still in beta, of sorts...

The Inquisition (http://www.theinquisition.org/) is a MUD I've dumped quite a few hours into.

It has no levels, no classes, and no grinding (unless you want to be a mage, but they're working on removing the grind from that, I believe). You gain experience via roleplay, rather than killing stuff.

The combat system is fairly unique, in that you type out a combat emote, and it parses certain words from it to determine the type of strike you are attempting.

The magic system is also totally unique (and it's being revamped, as I said before, but it's quite workable as it is), but I'll leave the details up to those who actually manage to get a mage.

The general theme is, as one might guess from the name, an inquisition against mages. So, mages and magic are quite hush-hush.

It's a great game for those who don't like grinding and prefer RP with the support of code behind your actions. The main flaw is just that it's not finished. Though, I should note, when I say unfinished, I mean a lot of code is being reworked. All the systems in place now work, just not ideally.
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Sowelu

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Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2009, 01:29:29 pm »

Woo!  A subject I have experience in!

I used to play Aardwolf years and years ago.  Aardwolf is a lot of fun as a casual MUD, it's one of the great casual ones in fact.  You can't really take it very seriously...but you CAN hop on for half an hour, take a quest, kill a random monster for points, then wander over to one of the weirdly themed areas and hack up random critters for a while--and then quit out on the spot without worrying about losing your items or anything.  It's a very solid example of the Merc/ROM branch of MUDs (simple and casual), even though it's evolved pretty far past its roots by now.

The mud I play nowadays is RetroMUD.  It's party based and has a larger learning curve.  You can solo stuff in early levels, but later on you'll want to be in parties of four or so, or even up to eight players.  It's less casual but it has some nice depth, and it has some pretty impressive customization options...mostly because it's got, what, sixty, seventy playable races and a few hundred guilds.  (You take your first guild up to level 20, then you can essentially start taking levels in any of a TON of options based on your primary guild, and those give you even more options...click around on the Druid page to see the guild options for example.  My main character is a werewolf abjurer (protective spells), who's also taken the shaman guild (neat utility stuff, healing for animal races), is looking into more martial arts guilds for more damage output...)

If you are into actual roleplay--well, more of collaborative storytelling--MUSHes can be your thing.  But they're often an even bigger time investment, and they only work for certain personality types.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 01:31:49 pm by Sowelu »
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