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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2009, 09:56:00 am »

Stuffs

Well, don't forget that the 1st el presidente of Indonesia was sabotaged by THOSE PESKY NEDERLANDER!

And so we grew on to hate the blacks (melanesian) cause they were supporting (and supported by) the white guys (Dutchs)


Oh Soekarno. We miss you. We miss your crazy idea to combine Nationalism, Religiousinism, and Communism. We miss your speech. We miss your idealism. We miss your all-round craziness.
[/oldies]

Of course, I blame post-New Order government to be wussies. They allowed Rupiah from 1,300 a dollar to a whooping THIRTEEN THOUSAND A GRAND!

Wussies, I tell you. They are not crazy[/b] FAITHFUL enough to just kick those capitalists in their nutfruit and carving ourself an Empire!
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Leafsnail

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2009, 12:17:40 pm »

Quote
So, the goal is really to get as far away from facism - towards liberal/Libertarianism - but all the liberal philosophies are authoritarian and all the libertarian philosophies are conservative?
Not really.  You can get conservative authoritarian policies (eg banning gay marriage), conservative libertarian policies (eg removing anti discrimination laws), liberal authoritarian laws (eg setting a minimum on the number of women in a boardroom) and liberal libertarian laws (eg increasing religious freedom).  They are, to a certain extent, different scales, although someone calling themselves "Libertarian" is probably centre right.
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Pjoo

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2009, 12:40:17 pm »

You can get conservative authoritarian policies (eg banning women in boardroom), conservative libertarian policies (eg removing "minimum on the number of women in a boardroom" laws), liberal authoritarian laws (eg setting a minimum on the number of women in a boardroom) and liberal libertarian policies (eg counting on people not being stupid). 
Fixed?
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Leafsnail

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2009, 12:53:40 pm »

Quote
(eg counting on people not being stupid).
I dunno, that just sounds like apathy to me.  My ones were not meant to all be on the same issue, just random examples.
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Alexhans

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2009, 10:19:43 pm »

WARNING:  Naive 0:20 AM advice:

what about the middle?

Use the best things from both if you can.
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“Eight years was awesome and I was famous and I was powerful" - George W. Bush.

Lord Dakoth

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2009, 04:17:00 pm »

Don't sacrifice your beliefs just because other people don't like the stereotype.

I am conservative. Very conservative. I support business, and I think that the government should lower taxes on businesses and high-income households, not just the middle/lower classes.

Not to say that I am against charity. I love giving stuff to people, just to make them happy. I find that sharing is more fun than not sharing.

However, I don't think that charity should be compulsory. Money should be given freely, not ripped out of someone's pocket. If someone doesn't want to donate any of their income, the government should not force them. It's not necessarily a good thing, but it is their money, and they can do pretty much whatever they want with it.

Although I am conservative, I don't consider myself a "greedy bastard." Neither do my friends, even my far left-wing friends.

Remember, "conservative" and "liberal" are ideals, not concrete concepts. You can "mix and match" individual policies as much as you want, too.
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Avatar by legendary engraver /u/Redicno of reddit.

LegoLord

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2009, 04:19:47 pm »

Of course, the government does give money to people below the poverty threshold, so long as they actually have a source of income.  I think we've had that for ages now, actually.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Idiom

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2009, 04:26:08 pm »

Sides?
Phhhhhhhhhhhhh
Moderates FTW!
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LegoLord

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2009, 04:54:19 pm »

Sides?
Phhhhhhhhhhhhh
Moderates FTW!
Yeah!  Come, join the Moderate Party!  What do we stand for?!

. . .

We'll get back to you once we've all reached a consensus on that matter.  And once we've actually formed a party.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Jude

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Re: I've been supporting the wrong side.
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2009, 10:57:36 pm »

I'd say I'm leftist on most issues, extreme right on a few (such as the first amendment).

There are, I'm certain, plenty of idiots/non-thinkers on both sides. However, the ones on the right (in America...and in general I'd say) tend to be a lot more heinous and loud about it. I mean, what's the liberal equivalent of people hating illegal immigrants, or screaming for America to nuke the middle east after 9/11? Maybe some people on the left support social programs without much thought, but to me, that's a well-meant sentiment, whereas the unthinking opinions on the right tend to be selfish.

That's fundamentally where the difference is I think. The right tends to be selfish. Now, to some degree of course, individual liberty is at the center of the American system of government and law, and it's certainly important to protect it. And there are people that make excellent arguments of why this or that government program shouldn't exist because it steps on people's individual liberties. But ultimately, leftist views tend to be that people should be helped, even if you have to force people to help others...whereas the rightist tendency is that people should not be forced to help others, and  that often translates into, "don't inconvenience me to help others, or don't tax me a little extra to provide a life-saving service to someone else."

Also, to take a high profile issue...this healthcare reform disaster. Why do people on the left support it? Well, if you're the average Democrat, you've got health insurance, you're well to do; you want healthcare reform so that other Americans, who probably don't even live in your neighborhood, don't have to go without healthcare. Again, there is a right wing case to be made against it (too much government regulation of industry) but that's not what you hear idiots screaming in town hall meetings; you hear them screaming about how they don't want to lose their health care. Ignoring for a minute that they're all morons who assume something is true because Glenn Beck said it (as opposed to assuming the opposite, a much more logical conclusion) it's still a selfish choice - you'd rather have slightly better health care yourself than have millions of other people have health care at all.

Then finally that brings me to the business side of things. Conservatives tend to love the free market because...well, because it's free. Minimal restriction of individual rights to buy and sell, right? But there's a point of diminishing returns in any balance of the common good vs. individual freedom. In business, that point comes a lot sooner than with many other issues. We already know from history what happens if you let capitalism go unregulated; a wealthy few completely dominate, exploit and destroy the helpless majority. Not to mention the wealthy few buy the government. Conservative arguments for an unregulated market rest purely on principles, but if you look at the results of playing out those principles rather than ascribing merit to them a priori, you get a very different conclusion.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 11:04:55 pm by Jude »
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Quote from: Raphite1
I once started with a dwarf that was "belarded by great hanging sacks of fat."

Oh Jesus
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