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[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>
Well, during World-Gen, I would suggest letting one of each race to reach the limit of technology, and then immediately kill them off and disable any other civ reaching that level of technology again (essentially leaving them at the same level they are now) This would help create some relics and interesting ruins to adventure around in.
</STRONG>

That was a genius idea! It'd give the people in the game world a nice golden age to reminisce about too, with the associated legends, too.

But humans as parasites? I rather see them as just as inventive as dwarves, but much less bound down by traditions. Then again, that's the traditional perspective and originality is good. I just have a hard time admiring the dwarves.

[Dasleah]

Well, many fictions make out the Dwarves and Elves as the older races, slowly dying off, and the Humans the race that moves in on their territory and takes over their domains through sheer virtue of adaptability, much faster breeding, and generally being smart enough to learn the basics of everything the Dwarves and Elves leave behind.

So, yeah, I envision Humans as more parasites than anything. They're not so much discovering things for themselves but emulating and copying things that the Dwarves and Elves have done. Perhaps somewhere along the line some Dwarves took pity on the filthy savages and taught them the basics of metalworking, or some obviously deranged Elf decided to be helpful and taught them some simple agriculture. I mean, why would Humans need to learn things for themselves? Dwarves alone represent a massive technology base that they can simply pilfer from / copy without having to know the details.

[mickel]

That's one thing I dislike about the game - the other races are mostly just more or less technologically stunted versions of the dwarves. I believe that will change in the future though.

With the dwarves living only underground it makes sense for them to be superior to humans in mining and some stoneworking, but behind in everything else. Dwarves don't roam the seas and discover new lands. They don't venture into deep jungles in search of strange plants and creatures. They don't take to the skies to explore the stratosphere. And, importantly, they don't meet with and exchange ideas with goblins, elves and other intelligent races on a regular basis. Dwarves to me are a stagnant, tradition-bound race that live in pits and chafe on their rocks, not a people that are forward looking inventors and discoverers.

I think the game reflects that in a very good way. It's just the other races that need work, and I know Toady is getting to that in his own time.

[Dasleah]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>Dwarves don't roam the seas and discover new lands. They don't venture into deep jungles in search of strange plants and creatures. They don't take to the skies to explore the stratosphere.</STRONG>

Are you even playing the same game?  

Regardless, the Humans / Elves / Etcetera will be eventually 'fluffed out' when they become playable in Fortress Mode in vanilla DF, I suppose. Until then, we can only conjecture as to Toady's plan for how they'll be interpreted. I personally like the Humans = Parasites angle myself, so until told otherwise that's what I'll delude myself into sticking with.

[Capntastic]

Toady himself said it best, regarding techstuff in DF.  Something along the lines of: "We liked Arnold better as Conan than as the Terminator"

[Sevrun]

Amen to that Cap, and Dasleah... you're not the only person who sees *sneer* humans... in that fashion.  once the army arc is in up and running good, I'm making it my personal crusade to crush the pathetic thin skinned worms from each and EVERY world I visit...  but I'm not bitter...  

[MuonDecay]

I'm going to do a very strange thing here and propose a sort of tech system from an obscure game that most people have never heard of and which was found drawn-out and dull by a large number of people.

The game was called Diggles, and it was about, coincidentally, dwarves living underground, working towards a certain goal. though they were compared more obviously to Vikings, serving Odin and whatnot. (I won't give spoilers, however unlikely they are to actually spoil anything for anyone)

Anyhow, the "tech" in the game was essentially that, when one of the dwarves had accrued enough skill in one or more disciplines, they were able to head off into a workshop and invent something. Now, this preserved some of the evil of a "tech tree" because you still knew what you were getting and what that would subsequently "unlock" before it was even discovered, per se... but it required an appropriate investment in skill development such that it felt as though you really were researching a technology, because you had to develop someone who was smart enough in the necessary disciplines, by means of real work experience, to be able to think the technology up.

This wasn't necessarily a good thing in a game whose other features made this a difficult feature and otherwise also slowed the pace of the game down quite a bit relative to other elements of it. However... in DF were there to be further technology it would make sense to use an educate-a-dwarf-to-advance-further sort of investment required.

Though honestly I'd rather just have everything unlocked from the get-go and require the appropriate resources to be gathered to take advantage of it. This alone can be an appropriately limiting factor.

[Kagus]

Well hey!  Someone else who's played Diggles!  That's uncommon.  

A skill-related tech tree could be nice, but there still lies the problem in that the dwarves aren't starting a new civilization, they're branching off from another one.  It could still be used, but not in the sense of "invention".  You would have all the technology "available" to you, but you'd need a dwarf with a certain amount of skill in order to actually do something with it.  You can't hire Mr. Random Cheesemaker off the streets (halls?) and expect him to make ballista parts, you need someone who actually knows what they're doing.

That could tie in well with the idea that was proposed here a while back about skill relation.  I believe Puzzlemaker was the one who proposed that design, yes?  Where dwarves would gain a certain amount of competence working a certain material, and would thus be more prepared to work it in different ways?

But in truth, the best thing about researching stuff in Diggles was the hat that they would put on to do their heavy thinking.  I've still got that game sitting around here somewhere...  And I would like to add that the English translation "eb biban".

[Neonivek]

The Problem with Diggles however... was many many fold... but two areas that are important to me

A) Technology was required to make certain resources appear (This part SUCKED) meaning you could dig for materials... then find out later "Sorry, you dug too much when you didn't know what Uranium was... so you can never EVER find it again"
B) The game... TOOK WAY TOO FREEKEN LONG!!! The person who would enjoy building their own bases in that game would have a patience of a god!!!

I enjoyed it though, but my patience worn thin. Had those been better, I could see myself playing it right now.

Anyhow back to Dwarf Fort

I kinda see dwarves doing everything in Eureka moments rather then anything truely fixed.

Technology could be done in a similar way to Artifacts to make Forts more unique since no Fort will have every peice of technology available. I guess you could Trade for Technology or war for it. Except linked to Dwarf Skill and # of dwarves. (and I guess the Philosopher should do something too)

Civilisations could I guess share technology with eachother.

Though the problem is having it so Technology doesn't do things you feel that having high skills should do. I thought of some like Efficiant Designs that allow you to use less materials for crafting, but that makes more sense as a benefit from a skilled dwarf then advancement.

[brainfire]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>That's one thing I dislike about the game - the other races are mostly just more or less technologically stunted versions of the dwarves.</STRONG>

Ever been to a goblin tower? Those doesn't exactly seem like the work of a technologically stunted civilization.

[Techhead]

Gunpowder dates to the 800s in china, used in firearms by the 1100s, and the earliest European reference to gunpowder is found in Roger Bacon's Epistola de secretis operibus artiis et naturae from 1267.
I think that basic firearms (hand cannon) and explosives (powder kegs (i.e. barrels)) are fair game, relatively speaking.
Powder kegs could be used 4 ways, strategically.
1. Detonated via mechanisms. (Plates or levers)
2. Light fuse and run for your life. (Might want to use your more agile dwarves)
3. Strap to tamed animals and/or peasants.
4. Use them in catapults.

And who needs an actual cannon that shoots dull iron balls at the enemy when we can hurl exploding dwarves barrels from our catapults.

[Neskiairti]

alot of people are looking at it the wrong way..

technology is a building block with potential, not a ready made prepackaged object for sale at your local supermarket

its like the engineering as it is now.. you can do all kinds of things with it, as you put it together..

lets look at the electricity.. it could work like the magical levers/mechanisms.. connect one generator to another over vast distances without using mechanics.. but you would need to know a few things.. a) what electricity is b) how to make copper wires.. c) how to build a generator..

so it would have to be like artifacts but with prerequisites.. Zeburg Nourja was struck by lightning/hit with a mages lightning bolt, Zeburg Nourja has discovered the theory of electricity!

well.. doesnt do anything for you.. you dont have any copper wire, and you dont have any

so you discover a metalurgy method for making wire.. whats its use? decoration, possibly some other objects (making fine chains for instance, for jewelry).. so how do you get from a to b? well need to produce electricity first.. and this would be YOUR skill i think..

engineering should be a bit more complex than they are.. able to build a complex machine.. the first, most simple one.. would be a wind mill or gear assembly.. or pump.. you already have blueprints for those.. so you choose your components carefully and arrange them correctly.. a spool of wire, magenetite mechanism, any other mechanism, metal casing, rod(of any type, stone, wood, metal, bone) and boom.. you have a generator... but.. what does it do? without the theory of electricity, nothing, without magnetite and copper wire/gold wire/steel wire, not much really..

so with all the pieces put together.. you have yourself a generator.. which allows you to link one generator to another.. with a few spools of copper wire.. if it rains? well, power is disrupted, and might haev a chance to electrocute a dwarf if they go in the wrong place

so what else could be done with that magnetite mechanism in the box? well maybe a gear assembly that doesnt grind to a halt if too much power is drawn..

so it keeps spinning (and eating its power) allowin everything else to spin.. except things on the other side which take too much energy..

for one of my systems, I was using a pump that drew water to produce energy on a water wheel.. the starter for it was 4 windmills.. which wasnt enough to run the whole system unless the water wheels were going.. i had the water wheels connected with a gear assembly connected to a lever.. so once the water was going full blast, then i started it up.

what about that wire? make crafts and jewelry out of it.. to increase their value.. or a wire cage.. a chain link fence a grate.. whatever you wanted..

light bulb? woo... now were on to glass blowing and linking the generator up to light fixtures.. and remember, the generator has to stay dry!..

light bulb would be machine making with a clear glass bottle some wire and something to use as a filament.. (maybe some materials make better filaments than others?) rat tail.. greater cave spider silk.. iron wire.. you name it and one filament might produce more light than another.. while some would burn out and need to be replaced.. some might produce a different color of light..

anyhow, im sure you get the idea..

on another topic along those lines.. tanks.. people seem to forget the tank of the old days.. the rolling catapult.. mobile ballista.. chariots, to the more modern (yet still old) cannons.. or the chinese rockets..

now make one of those with metal armor.. and a coal fired power source to move it instead of drawn by animals..

(a side note btw.. we really need coal fired generators, as well as animal drawn generators.. for many ages, mills were run by animals at a turnstyle and what not.. would require the proper animals, such as horses, bovines, cammels, and what not..)

so a cart when you make it, you could choose its method of locomotion if you had discovered any other than being drawn by animals.. then maybe give it armor, instead of an open cart, top it with canvas to protect against the rain.. or wooden roof and sides.. or metal.. and its weight should determine how fast it can travel too and how much power it needs to move.. a tank.. would nto get very far afterall

-pictures a cart with a windmill on it to power it... so completely broken.. but so dwarf fotress-

-edit- oh yeah.. and btw.. on the choice between gunpowder powered cannons and gunpowder keg launching trebuchets... ill go for the trebuchet mmm.. asplosion.

[ May 18, 2008: Message edited by: Neskiairti ]

[Duke 2.0]

I figure technology in terms of skill. Dwarves could pick up most basic things for most any job in the course of their life, but some things need to be specifically learned. Perhaps a library where books with specific skills could be had, so if you want your blacksmiths to be able to make metal wires or metal hollow cylinders you would have them taught the skill over time.

That way technology isn't so much a tree where everybody can discover something for the hundredth time instead of somebody knowing the skill/upgrade coming to your fort. It's more of a skill.

Urist McSwordsmith: Bah! How the heck do I make these things stronger?
Kogan McTrader: Hey! Here is a book on swordmaking techniques. And some bloke just immigrated here with some ideas about putting some carbon-rich rose in a blade.
Urist McSwordsmith: Genius!

Immigrants can come with skills relevant to their job, and books can be sold by caravans(Expensively mind you), along with being available on the dwarf menu in the embankment screen. Naturally skills would be worth gold because these are trade secrets, and can only be taught to people skilled enough to understand.

Thats how I see technology.