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[Pilsu]

If you hate it so much, don't use it.

That's not a good justification to add an unrealistic fuel source into the game. "It's a fantasy game" doesn't justify peat burning hotter than it really does or having the requisite chemical properties for steel-making. Either you provide a source that it can be used for those purposes or you won't smelt higher end metal with it. The game is supposed to be based on reality, fantasy or no

I wager you just want to set a 1 square activity zone and lift an unlimited amount of fuel from it.

[Silverionmox]

Peat has roughly 2/3 or 3/4 the caloric value of wood. It was used historically to boil salt out of seawater, and as house heating, but AFAI can remember not for heavy industry.

Peat, sand and clay should be cut/dug/mined out properly, anyway. The current infinite yield is a placeholder. I do look forward to sizable deposits in that case.

[LegoLord]

At least magma can actually reach the right temperature, pilsu.  All that stuff about toxic gases, that can be avoided.  Think now;  it's a magma forge.  Powered by one tile of magma.  There's usually one tile of the forge that is depicted as a gray square with a red dot in it.  Just what do you think that little tile is?  Something that only doesn't go over that square of magma because we can't rotate buildings yet.  Now think, it's a stone structure going over the spout of magma, hm, how do we block off the gas?  Oh, wait, I can just close it and we'll be fine.

Plus, I don't think a single exposed tile will spout gas that quickly.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are plans to make magma heat dependent rather than heat-generating.  So it can be nerfed - it's not at all the impossibly broken thing you make it out to be.  It can be fixed without removing.

[Pilsu]

At least magma can actually reach the right temperature, pilsu.

How? It doesn't burn so I don't see oxygen making it any hotter. Only komatiite melts would actually surpass iron's melting point, at least according to wikipedia

Just what do you think that little tile is?  Something that only doesn't go over that square of magma because we can't rotate buildings yet.

While it's certainly hot enough to work metal, wouldn't dunking the blade into slag defeat the purpose of refining the metal? How exactly would you melt things or ore with it?

Now think, it's a stone structure going over the spout of magma, hm, how do we block off the gas?  Oh, wait, I can just close it and we'll be fine.

It would almost certainly leak, if not explode from the building pressure. Not to mention the fumes would be hot enough to scald your lungs


It just doesn't make any sense as is. I guess there's no reason to remove them but don't pretend they aren't powered by the Rule of Cool. I would expect a little consistency however, magma should melt submerged iron items. In the future if the AI can handle it, I would expect protective gear to be needed

[Sean Mirrsen]

First things first, remember that this here is fantasy magma. Remember LotR, about how even dragon-breath was inferior to it? Then recall Convection Shmonvection - surely holding a piece of metal over magma would heat it enough.

[LegoLord]

Lava can range in temperature from 700-1200 degrees [. . .] Charcoal burns at 1100.[lower than maximum magma temperature]

Once again, on top of that, I will mention that you do not actually melt iron to work it.  Iron has a higher melting point than steel, and if 1200 degrees is the temp of magma in the game as is, and charcoal burns colder than that, I'm guessing magnetite has a lower melting point than iron or it isn't melted during the smelting process; rather, the other element(s) that forms magnetite either melts or diffuses into the atmosphere (depending on what it is) after being chemically separated.  Plus, thanks to the convection that you claim would be so deadly, one could pop the metal bar onto a tray, slide it in the forge (but above the magma, not in it), and close it up.  Then after awhile open it up and pull the tray out. (do NOT start nitpicking about what the tray is made of, it doesn't matter and there are plenty of appropriate candidates).

It should also be noted that some things require certain materials to be smelted, rather than simply a certain temperature.  These materials are sometimes catalysts.

_{*As a side note, the brackets in the quote show that that part of the quote is edited by the quoter to note something or shorten the quote}

[Pilsu]

Charcoal burns hotter when it's supplied oxygen. Magma does not burn

I already mentioned that you can work metal with it either way

[Luke_Prowler]

I don't think anyone at anytime said that peat or [insert whatever here] can melt anything. So what if we can only make bronze or less superior iron armor and weapons. It's still better than nothing.

[lucusLoC]

I did say that wood can get hot enough for melting iron, and that it is just a matter of putting in the effort to do it. It is mostly just a question of airflow. There are limits, of course, as there comes a point when extra airflow ceases to actualy cause more oxidation, and then you start working agaist yourself (extra cool air). I have no idea what those limits are, but i immagine they are quite high, and probaly require things like optimum fule size and such.

we used 1 to 2 inch diamiter splittings, no bark, 2 or 3 year seasoned woods. I forget what type, but when mt friend would cast small figurienes he prefered a paticular type (that is, when he did not have coal. Which was not very often. Actualy i only remeber once or twice. Coal did the same job with about a 3rd the effort). Typical amounts were very small, a few ounces at most. I remeber it took a while to do with wood. It also took a lot of it.

[Grendus]

Lava can range in temperature from 700-1200 degrees, according to wikipedia (don't knock my source, I'm a cs major not geology). Charcoal burns at 1100. Tapping magma directly out of a volcano would almost certainly be hot enough to work up to bronze, maybe even iron, assuming some non-human technology.

I'm interested in how exactly you intend to avoid dying from the convection or for that matter, how you plan to pump the magma without it ruining your equipment. Then there's the poisonous gases. Volcano lairs tend to fall short of OSHA compliance

Then there's the question of whether magma heats up when you pump oxygen into it, allowing it to surpass the melting point of useful metals. As you can see, charcoal falls short of iron melting point by several hundred degrees

I spoke of iron ore I might point out. Steel does require coal but iron ore doesn't for some reason. Carbon is needed to separate the oxygen from the iron oxide, also known as rust

Fair enough. The game also doesn't try to take into account the toxic gasses from running a charcoal forge indoors, CO and CO2 are less toxic but no less deadly in closed spaces like mineshafts. Presumably Toady simply hasn't gotten around to dealing with toxic gasses. Since dwarves can already work metal with magma, we can assume this is one of those areas where the game diverges from 1400's technology.

Oh yea, and the temperatures I gave earlier were incorrect. 700-1200 is the temperature of lava, molten rock that's been exposed to colder surface air. Magma, or subsurface molten rock, can break 2400 degrees, presuming you can find a way to survive that type of heat long enough to work the metal (which can presumably be done, as dwarves do it already) it's enough to work iron.

An argument can be made for requiring charcoal for smelting. Since most ores are bound to oxygen or sulfur, charcoal is used irl as a reducing agent. However, the argument should be made on the basis of charcoal being required for smelting, not that magma doesn't have the heat required.

Aside from that, peat could probably be used to fuel a forge if you processed it like charcoal, as could petrochemicals if they were ever implemented.

Cough up a historical precedent. Peat would have certainly seen use if it works, shouldn't be too difficult

Eh, I'll concede this point. While it's possible peat could be refined into a charcoal-like carbon density, it would be beyond 1400's level technology. It might be good enough to work up to bronze though, and with the new metal properties coming out in the next version that may not be such bad thing. And no, I don't want an infinite supply, I was thinking of mining peat being similar to mining out lignite or coal where it leaves a chunk of peat behind based on the miners skill that could be processed into something. Same thing goes with sand, though I would rather mining sand require wooden or stone supports and leave behind sand piles that have to be gathered in bags (possibly yielding multiple bags of sand, which could either be made into glass or disposed of).

Peat could also, in theory, be used as a reducer in a magma smelter. Again, I'm not sure if this is even possible, but it's something to consider. With heat from magma and carbon from peat, it may be possible to separate the metal from it's impurities.

[Rowanas]

Hmm. This made me wonder, how are our dwarves working this metal? They appear not to case harden iron, which seems odd given the time period. Case hardening was well used in iron production from the very start of the middle european iron age because it's cheap and effective in providing a hard outer casing. Assuming this lack of case hardening is significant, and not just an oversight, I would've thought that iron would be far less useful for weapons particularly, although armour and shields made out of it would suffer slightly from being softer.

[Grendus]

Hmm. This made me wonder, how are our dwarves working this metal? They appear not to case harden iron, which seems odd given the time period. Case hardening was well used in iron production from the very start of the middle european iron age because it's cheap and effective in providing a hard outer casing. Assuming this lack of case hardening is significant, and not just an oversight, I would've thought that iron would be far less useful for weapons particularly, although armour and shields made out of it would suffer slightly from being softer.

I wonder if Toady has plans to overhaul the metalworking system beyond the metal properties next version. I've seen a lot of threads like this, might be something he should look at.