Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Supersnes]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Forward from Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.

Overall there has been quite a few religion threads in the past and only a few discuss champions/villians/saints/etc. but in passing.

One thing that could make religion more important is that gods and demons can choose a champion to represent them if they don't have a physical form.  These champions can go from being a regular peasant npc or player character to a hero/demigod status.  Besides the overall stat boost these individuals could also have their skills boosted equally across the board--or like in creation menu--dump points into already strong skills to become even more powerful, and/or boost there weaknesses so they are less evident.  The skill boost allocation can be attributed to the god in question.

These champions would have markings to signify their covenant with the deity.  These can be marking such as stigmata, tatoos, extra body parts (a third eye), etc..  This can make the champion recognizable wherever they go, both adding and hindering them.  Champions aligned with a god of a local religion can be welcomed by the villagers, unless the religion is of a demon that terrorizes the region.  this could work out in that the Champion can approach otherwise distrustful settlements and be welcomed immediately, unlike having to establish a baseline trust, and be bestowed armor, food, water, liquor, and other gifts.  On the other hand a alignment with a demon/evil god could make any villager hostile.  The villagers would be resentful/paranoid/ fearful of the champion.  They would hide indoors, lock doors, run into the wilderness, make sacrifices to the champion to be spared, etc.  However, the current game probably wouldn't support this as npcs will attack almost anything hostile to their civ.  Here is a thread that explains the trust/fear aspect and its implementation:   http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105400.0.


Overall the champion can lead to whole levels of fun.  Depending on alignment the champion may rise to be a great military leader and have many followers to fight the forces of evil in a mighty crusade.  The champion could help conquer entire regions in the name of the religion, defend the region from external/internal force, and/or fight the legions of night creatures, titans, and megabeasts.   
Inversely, the champion of demons and mad gods will not seek out followers from villages and forts of good alignment.  Instead the champions minions can be recruited from night creatures, titans, megabeasts, goblins, necromancers, witches, and devious humans and elves through magical and blood pacts.  These armies of the damned can be used to spread fear and terror across the different civs.  If enough bloodshed is spilt--through battle, massacre, sacrifice of prisoners volunteers--the demon/god may be summoned and brought into the world, rendering a great cataclysm.


Over time the champion may have enough of a following to become the ruler of the region in question and may even be seen and worshiped as a new god--to the irk of the god(s)/demon who bestowed the powers.  This can set up interesting betrayal set up where the god can curse/banish the champion making them the evil that they were sent to destroy and/or the champion can rise and usurp the god/demon and banish them to the earth.

An interesting aspect of this would be that the player may not be the main focus.  Instead, as in Oblivion, the player is merely a companion of the champion--following them into battle, transporting orders and supplies between camps/towns/forts, retrieving holy/tainted relics, etc..  The player would almost be a bystander able to sit back and watch the world change and form.

Whether or not the player is a champion there can be pitched battles between good and evil champions and their amassed forces.  These battles can possibly determine the future of entire civilizations and the outcome that the world will become.  This can create a great importance in fighting as the fate of the world can be at stake.  But players and npcs should have the option to be separate from the conflict and not even bogged down with the dichotomy of good and evil.

Furthermore, champions may have artifact weapons and armor of great power and ability.  Crusading champions may have holy blades and armor that dispel and exorcise the evils of the world while a demon follower can have weapons and armor that taint the air around them, driving those around them to madness, and melting them into victims into magma/acid/syndromes fun piles.

[NW_Kohaku]

I kind of said this in that last thread as well, but you seem to be talking about this as if DF is a game where you have champions fighting wars of good against evil.

DF is less about good vs. evil as it is a bunch of filthy, evil things living in a hole fighting a bunch of filthy, evil things invading that hole.

Most gods are gods of wine or pottery or fish or something, anyway, rather than something that intrinsically represents some philosophical outlook on life such as "justice" or "generosity" or "pacifism" whose god somehow figures needs to be perpetuated via violence against one's neighbors. 

[Neonivek]

Yeah right now pantheons don't even include "Evil" or even "Malicious" dieties who are meant to be the antithesis of their teachings.

[Supersnes]

The dichotomy of good and evil is only a matter of perspective.  There could be champions/civs that find a just cause in deplorable acts on those they deem to be "evil" while they themselves would be viewed as "evil" by the victims.  There should be a grey area where good and evil are the very severe ends of the spectrum.  This grey area can include champions/civs with a neutral stand point and are not attached to a conflict, those who wish to remain outside the conflict, and those that are there to maintain the balance.

Here is my original discussion on that:

Oh, wow, didn't expect that link to go over to that thread...

Actually, if we are talking about Gods directly interfering, one thing I discussed in an earlier thread was Physical Gods. 

As in, Dwarf Zeus, literally hopping down off Mt. Dwarflympus, and spreading his divine reproductive spores to all the female dwarves in your fort or something.  Including the ones that are already married... and already pregnant.  And no birth control. 

... Suckers!

Then Dwarf Hera will hate your fortress, and try to magma flood you or something, so be careful.

But more seriously, what's a more epic ending of an adventure than actually, literally, challenging a God to single combat?  (Enjoy your electric pin-cushioning.)



Anyway, keep in mind that DF isn't quite geared to "Good vs. Evil" so much as "Things trying to kill you vs. Survival".  It's a game where filthy, evil things living in a hole win by being better prepared than the filthy, evil things coming out of holes to attack them. 

The gods of poetry or fertility or fishing or somesuch are more common than a god of holy war against the unfaithful.  Maybe the guy will come out of his union with the fishing god with gills or fishing tackle hanging off his body parts?  He'll fight in a neverending crusade against the high cholesterol of beef, and champion the dietary benefits of a seafood-heavy diet.

Nice to see how we can make the system as dworfy as possible!!   But yeah the whole evil/good dichotomy shouldn't be evil is evil and good is good with no in between, but rather it needs to be a matter of perspective.  Kind of like one religion/civ viewing another as barbaric and impure;so that the player can enter neutrally into this conflict.  This can lead to things like the missionary and conquests done by some countries over the millennia where a strong powerful nation completely massacres another much smaller, weak nation in order to show them the "true path".  The members of the large nation, for the most part, will view the invasion as just while the player and the rest of the world and future generations can see the act as deplorable (i.e. The Crusades, Nazi invasion and installation of the final resolution, etc.).  However, this system would need to allow descent to general opinion, much like was discussed in the link in my previous post, where personal opinions of justice can outweigh national/religious loyalty.  This can lead to things like resistance groups and espionage to limit and hinder the progress of the nation in question.

Kinda got sidetracked but in truth there should be a grey area where champions can be neutral to other conflicts simply due to them not being affected.  For example if two civ. go to war, the champion--who may be contracted to a nature spirit--can just sit in their forest/cave/hill/etc. and let the war happen.  Not getting involved until the war enters into their sphere of influence/duty and/or affects their aligned deity, in which both sides will be viewed as enemies and dealt with accordingly.

[Soulbourne]

Poking through a few threads on my every 3 month or so foray into DF forums >.>

And!  I'd like to make this comment: Dieties don't necessarily need to be divided into good and evil per se.  Dividing between pantheons, or individual gods who intermingle in various regions could very well happen.  It could have a hierarchy, it could be which god has the most favor amongst the pop.  Rather or not their good or evil isn't a clearcut thing-as was said, it's a matter of perspective.  MORALS are what determines it.  Elves I believe I heard once were supposed to be the epitome of good when they're not broken and incomplete-some would consider the cannibal tag to be evil, but, that's merely a differing view of morals.  Elves may believe(If it is set in lore, I don't read much threetoes stories >.>) that consuming the bodies of their enemies is the only true way to purify them and save their souls after the atrocities and crimes they have committed.

If your gonna have these religious wars and want grey-avoid good and evil per se.  Have them have moral differences, things the gods believe so strongly and impress enough on their followers that gods more lax or outright encouraging of these "Evils" are counted as an enemy of them.  I mean, those demons may believe that turning your fortress into some sort of horrifying scene of debauchery and blood to merely be a necessary end for the world, something that needs done to prepare it for a future of even greater events and wonders-or what they consider as such.

[Neonivek]

The dichotomy of good and evil is only a matter of perspective

Yes and many pantheons keep a god specifically BECAUSE they are supposed to be the "Evil god". Who isn't meant to be worshipped.

[Soulbourne]

The Giant Loki and his children had followers I know, plus he was bffs with Thor.

Hades had a rather extensive temple complex with many priests at one place, since he wasn't evil according to greek belief.

Set was worshipped heavily in egypt, and was technically a "good guy" in many ways.

The Greek titans I believe had their followers.

Which pantheons are you talking about?

[Detoxicated]

There is devil worship, hindu cults worshipping Kali in frivolous ways, death cults, sex cults, and other degraded sects of horror, so I guess it's safe to say there is some crazy people out there worshipping evil per se.