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Author Topic: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?  (Read 11333 times)

Yanlin

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #135 on: June 05, 2009, 12:44:37 pm »

I could have sworn that part wasn't there...
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Leafsnail

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #136 on: June 05, 2009, 03:07:31 pm »

Food for though:  A single stab in self-defense that causes the attacker to bleed to death is not considered murder.  However, if the victim were to continue stabbing multiple times (7 or more I think), the victim establishes premeditation, making it murder.

That's why I sleep with a big enough knife underneath my pillow so that it won't take more than one stab and gut.
That would be premediation.  If you're actually planning to use lethal force on a thief that comes into your house, that is murder.

To be honest, I don't support these "Stand your ground" laws, for two main reasons.

1. It makes the victim judge, jury, and executioner.  It could be easy to lure someone into your house and then shoot them dead.  The thief receives the death penalty for what could have been a small crime.

I'm curious, Leaf.  If you are committing armed robbery, and there's a policeman about, he will shoot you.  If you're not looking at him, or he has some cover, he'll be kind enough to tell you to drop the weapon first.  If you do anything besides that, I'm pretty sure it's standard procedure for them to shoot.  Do you support this?  If so, exactly how is it different from a normal person in an armed robbery shooting back?
Yes.  But policemen are trained to make such decisions, and to not shoot an innocent person randomly.  Civilians, on the other hand, are not.  A policeman has to establish that the person has a gun and will use it before using lethal force.  A civilian, under these laws, may shoot an unarmed and non attacking thief.  There is a big difference.

I suppose this comes down to your view on capital punishment.  I feel it is wrong due to potential miscarriages of justice (think Sean Hogson over here - released after 27 years in jail for a murder he didn't commit.  What would have happened to him in America?  Execution for a crime he didn't commit) as you can at least release and clear the name of someone who has been imprisoned falsely.  However, even if you are a supporter of capital punishment, you cannot say that it should be used for all crimes.  Breaking and entering shouldn't be punishable by death, and a civilian should not have the right to choose if a thief should be killed.

Summary: Self defence allowed, until it's clear that the assailant can no longer fight back/ chase you if you run (broken limb, on the floor, unconscious).  If you continue to attack (eg kick in person's head, shoot them, strangle them on floor) then it's murder.  An accidental killing in the first stage is manslaughter, and the evidence should be considered as to whether or not it constituted unreasonable self defence.
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LegoLord

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #137 on: June 05, 2009, 04:15:04 pm »

Basically, once the victim gets a significant advantage over the attacker in which the attacker cannot effectively fight back, the victim cannot do anything more than hold the attacker, else the victim becomes the attacker.
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Sergius

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2009, 02:12:04 am »

Try looking "Take a third option" on TV tropes. I'd choose neither. After you give the punk your wallet, what's to stop him from blasting you anyway? Then you can't report him. "Humans take the path of least resistence . . ."

Why shoot you after you complied and gave him your wallet, when he could shoot you and take the wallet afterwards?
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Yanlin

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #139 on: June 06, 2009, 02:58:54 am »

Because people are idiots.
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LegoLord

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #140 on: June 06, 2009, 08:46:02 am »

Because I believe it's easier to track a murder than a theft, if the murder involves bullets.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Sergius

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #141 on: June 06, 2009, 10:21:41 pm »

No, I mean, why bother to ask for the wallet first and shoot next, instead of just shooting. For the lulz?
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #142 on: June 06, 2009, 10:26:33 pm »

No, I mean, why bother to ask for the wallet first and shoot next, instead of just shooting. For the lulz?
They might say no, and then you just look like an idiot.
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LegoLord

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #143 on: June 06, 2009, 10:35:22 pm »

Oh, I see what you mean.  If they're going to shoot you anyway, why don't they shoot first?  Well, the only people I can see waiting until after would be the serial killer type, and those aren't all too common.  Anyone else would just be too worried about police to shoot at all unless there wasn't compliance.

As far as robberies and muggings go, kill or be killed is simply paranoia.  Complete falsehood.  Your money is not your life, and far more easily restored than life.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Leafsnail

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Re: Shooting dead thieves... Murder(Wrong)? or Right?
« Reply #144 on: June 07, 2009, 06:50:50 am »

Your insurance should cover your money.  Even if it doesn't, you will at least still be alive.  Hence during a fire you drop everything and get the fuck out of there.  I had this a while ago when the van I was in suddenly caught fire.  We may have lost stuff in there, but noone was hurt.

If someone shoots you, the bullet can be used to identify the gun's make.  The thief would probably have to dispose of the gun, which would be expensive, and buy another one.  They have no real reason to want to shoot you.
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