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Author Topic: More things should be influenced by quality.  (Read 1401 times)

Aquillion

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More things should be influenced by quality.
« on: April 26, 2009, 03:52:29 pm »

Forgive me if some of this is already in, but the Wiki makes no mention of it, so...

* Higher-quality millstones and querns should grind faster when made into the appropriate building.

* Higher-quality mechanisms should likewise make those workshops that require mechanisms operate faster.

* Higher-quality mechanisms in a pump should make the pump less tiring for dwarves who manually operate it, and maybe reduce its power requirements when automatically powered.

* Levers made from high-quality mechanisms should take a bit less time to pull (or, conversely, low-quality levers should take a bit more time to pull.)  The extra time for a low-quality lever should be sort of random so players can't account for it, ensuring that high-quality ones are better.

* Likewise, linkages made with high-quality mechanisms should transmit their effect very quickly, while linkages made from low-quality mechanisms should take longer in an unpredictable fashion.

* An anvil's quality (and material) should influence the time it takes to make something with it.

* Higher-quality bags should speed up any job that uses a bag (gather sand, processing to bag, etc.)  Also, perhaps the bag should be a bit lighter -- which is an abstract representation of the fact that they're better made to carry stuff.  (Less wasted material, or something.)

* Higher-quality ropes and chains should take more time to link/unlink creatures to.  Ditto for cages and caging.

* Pick quality and material should influence mining speed.

* Any workshop designed by an architect should have a increase to its job speed if well-designed; and if it involves items with quality in its construction, high-quality ones should help, too.  Also, well-designed workshops should 'resist' clutter, and require more items before they count as cluttered.

* Any potentially mechanical device (bridge, etc) that can be designed by an architect should have a faster and less random reaction speed if well-designed; and if it involves items with quality, again, those should speed it up.

* A well made from higher-quality components should be faster to drink from.

...I do not think that most of these things should have a very big influence, since it would be a bother if players absolutely had to replace all their workshops, and since a bunch of masterwork stuff could add up fast.  But it should show at least some impact, even if it's very minor, so players have reason to want higher-quality stuff in all cases.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 03:56:16 pm by Aquillion »
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Duke 2.0

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 03:58:28 pm »

 I would have to disagree with bags, as the only real thing which would slow you down would be damage to the bag.
 A Bag and a ☼Bag☼ should be pretty similar to speed(Although carrying capacity would be  welcome variation), but a xXBagXx could take longer/drop objects.

 Also, chains could be done better. I'm not sure how it could be handled better, but speed of chaining doesn't seem to be terribly intuitive or helpful/harmful.

 Still, I endorse the rest of this. Could be awesome when workshops are defined as rooms.
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G-Flex

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 03:58:36 pm »

If wear on objects/buildings/mechanisms comes into play, then quality should play a role there as well.
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Nicpon

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 04:03:28 pm »

Sounds not bad, but I feel  that only effect it would cause is  more micromanaging and slooow dooown.
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G-Flex

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 04:06:03 pm »

Not necessarily. Reloading/resetting traps is automatic, and fixing stuff could be automatic as well.

Of course, it would have to be done well. It would get annoying as hell if some random floodgate refuses to close in the middle of the river.
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Silverionmox

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 04:10:37 pm »

This will obviously require a way to "upgrade" items to an - otherwise identical - version of the same quality. Would it be easier to have general orders (replace built items with an item of superior quality when available (ignore material differences yes/no)), or to do it with manager commands (replace all -doors- with *doors*, in the same material class; replace all -cabinets- or worse with =cabinets= or better)?
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Draco18s

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2009, 04:50:52 pm »

This will obviously require a way to "upgrade" items to an - otherwise identical - version of the same quality. Would it be easier to have general orders (replace built items with an item of superior quality when available (ignore material differences yes/no)), or to do it with manager commands (replace all -doors- with *doors*, in the same material class; replace all -cabinets- or worse with =cabinets= or better)?

The best example would be mechanisms.  I don't want to have to completely deconstruct my
☼<<☼Water Clock☼>>☼ in order to replace all the mechanisms.
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Fossaman

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 04:55:15 pm »

This requires a way to view the architecture quality of a building, as well. As far as I know the player can't see that currently.
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Aquillion

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 06:10:43 pm »

Sounds not bad, but I feel  that only effect it would cause is  more micromanaging and slooow dooown.
Not necessarily. Reloading/resetting traps is automatic, and fixing stuff could be automatic as well.

Of course, it would have to be done well. It would get annoying as hell if some random floodgate refuses to close in the middle of the river.
This is why I feel that the difference should be small -- counted in seconds, say, not minutes.  A low-quality object should still work, and the penalty shouldn't be enough to force players to micromanage everything just to get good results (in workshops it'd have a much lower impact than clutter, say; with levers, it'd matter a lot less than placing the lever someplace easily reachable.)

I just think that there should be some effect.  Right now I dump all my low-quality mechanisms into places where I know quality doesn't matter at all.  It'd be nice if it mattered somewhat, even if the effect was small, so players had a reason to try and use their best stuff, and so producing high-quality things mattered a bit more and felt more rewarding.  And right now the Architect skill is almost useless...

There could be a manager or options command to have your more skilled architects go around improving the layout of workshops and such, though...
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Enzo

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 07:07:18 pm »

Mechanisms, as suggested before, need to be affected by quality quite desperately. As it is, all my masterwork mechanisms end up as trade goods or well components (the quality modifier counts there for aesthetics, right?).

Some of the other suggestions are a little wacky (as to how the bonus is passed on to the player). High quality architecture buildings already cause some pretty decent happy thoughts in dwarves (enough that it's worth making your embark mason one, so your dwarves shit their pants with glee everytime they see that obsidian bridge). I think the speed of architecture buildings doesn't necessarily have to be affected by the architect (might nerf buildings that don't require it, for instance).

Pick material should speed up mining but only if variable rock hardness is implemented ( a copper pick is fine for shale, but granite?). Millstone/Quern modifiers are a good idea and honestly I kinda assumed they were already in place (but mills suck. Syrup > Sugar).

That's my two cents anyway. Anything I didn't comment on was in the fear of sounding too negative, since this topic is mostly good ideas. High quality anvils and chains and stuff, I have a hard time believing would cause any practical benefit (besides aesthetics).
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Neonivek

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 08:36:24 pm »

Higher quality bags are more durable and don't press as badly onto the sholders of those who carry it.

I think cloth objects lasting very long periods of time without wearing out is a great advantage for quality.
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Aquillion

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2009, 04:14:30 am »

Mechanisms, as suggested before, need to be affected by quality quite desperately. As it is, all my masterwork mechanisms end up as trade goods or well components (the quality modifier counts there for aesthetics, right?).
Mechanisms do currently influence the accuracy of traps, at least.  Although I don't think it matters with cage traps (perhaps it could influence the difficulty of a trap-avoiding thief sneaking past one?  I know they catch them sometimes.)

As far as architecture goes, the idea is that a well-laid-out workshop is easier to work in than a poorly-planned one, and is less likely to get cluttered in a way that interferes with productivity (or, at least, you can have more things piling up there until it gets in the way.)

And working with anything of low quality can slow you down.  Remember, a no-modifier, zero-quality item is one made by someone who had no skill or experience at making that sort of object whatsoever -- I'm picturing low-skill bags as having obvious flaws, like an opening that is too small, or an uneven shape that makes it difficult to fill.  A low-skill anvil is just set up wrong; maybe its surface has imperfections, say.  In any case, these problems can be worked around, but they slow down anything you do with the object.
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ScreamingDoom

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Re: More things should be influenced by quality.
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2009, 11:43:20 am »

Wearing of things seems like it should be a function of usage, not time. That floodgate that is only opened once a year will take some time to degrade in quality, but that constantly flip-flopping pressure-plate waterworks thing would need constant maintenance.

This fits with the fiction, too... we all know that ancient traps which haven't seen maintenance in hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of years are far more reliable and deadly than modern ones.

Ideally, quality degradement should probably be something logarithmic, so that high-quality items last much longer than crappy ones and the more worn an item gets, the faster it deteriorates. That would really encourage using better quality mechanisms, picks, what-have-you if they simply last longer.
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