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[praguepride]

Agreed! Research for a game like DF is stupid because this was back before the scientific method. There is game called Crusader Kings by Paradox Interactive that has the best technology implementation for a medievel society.

You can choose what techs you want to "try" and learn (castle technology, better crossbows, whatever) but that really doesn't impact much. Instead, technology spreads. So an area learns Castle Tech 1, the surrounding areas (espeically those eager in castle techs) eventually learn it, and their neighbors eventually learn it etc. etc. Technology is treated like a flow. Then in those areas that are Castle Tech 1 and eager for Castle Tech, there's a chance of learning Castle Tech 2 ,which then flows.

It was interesting because you didn't want your border territories being as technologically advanced as your core territories for fear that your enemies will learn your own techs as the technology flows.

Anyway, it's all moot because DF isn't focused on technology. The dwarfs already have the most awesome technology in the land: processing adamantine.

[Neonivek]

Research for a game like DF is stupid because this was back before the scientific method

Well... not exactly. Not only have other societies stumbled upon what would today be considered a form of the scientific method but there were forms of "Research" even as far back as the 1400s. Though it was rarely anything the government stepped in and did (it was done by independents)

But it would definately be WAY before the Scientific Method could be used as such very effectively.

This is why I think technological advancement should be done by "Great people" or rather individuals making individual discoveries. Then society and/or Rulers can chose to use that discovery. If they don't it becomes either esoteric or lost.

[Granite26]

Agreed! Research for a game like DF is stupid because this was back before the scientific method.

Anyway, it's all moot because DF isn't focused on technology. The dwarfs already have the most awesome technology in the land: processing adamantine.

Except that the scientific method is itself a technology that was developed (and refined over time)

Adamantium is the perfect example of why we need SOME method of controlling technology.  Doesn't it seem silly to you that the only way to know how to process adamantine is to be raised in a dwarf civ?  (Not inborn knowledge, not shared cultural knowledge, just some magic property of the dwarven civ as if the civilization you are a part of has an existence unto itself and apart from it's members.

This is why I think technological advancement should be done by "Great people" or rather individuals making individual discoveries. Then society and/or Rulers can chose to use that discovery. If they don't it becomes either esoteric or lost.

Change 'choose to use' to 'have a viable use for the discovery when it is made' and I love it.  Aztecs didn't not have the wheel because they were stupid, they didn't have it because they lived on mountains.

I'm thinking about smelting techniques here.  Maybe the ability to build different tools out of different materials for slight efficiency gains.  If you only build 1 or 2 of them, they aren't worthwhile, but building 50 nickel pliers could improve copper efficiency from 1 ore:1 bar to 1 ore: 1.2 bar, at which point using the copper screwdrivers to improve nickel plier production becomes a viable positive feedback loop.  Until then, the wear on copper screwdrivers costs more than the net copper increase by pliers.

That means that people rich in nickel will use pliers early, but nickel poor societies won't use the advance (even if they know it) until their copper techniques catch up to make it worthwhile.

It's complicated and a pain, and maybe not worth it for the 20-30% metal gains you're likely to see, but it's an extra layer of challenge.

Incrimental improvements to steel are also possible.  (basically, we could have a few dozen alloys at varying usefulness all teched out, so what you use is based on what you know AND what raw materials you've got.)

Cold smelting is another efficiency gain.  Allow 1.2 bars per fuel unit.  Magmaless societies would eat this up, but magma forts wouldn't even care.

[Neonivek]

Change 'choose to use' to 'have a viable use for the discovery when it is made' and I love it.  Aztecs didn't not have the wheel because they were stupid, they didn't have it because they lived on mountains

Well you didn't change what I meant other then limit it a bit more.

It isn't just "Is this invention useful" it is also if the people want to use it. It isn't a indication of intelligence or Stupidity. It takes quite a bit of energy to intigrate an invention into society and if no one is exposed to it, it won't catch on.

I mean, when Europe became obsessed with rediscovering everything the Greek and Romans had that knowledge was around for hundreds of years and people didn't use any of it. A quite a bit which was actually quite useful. (though they did dig up quite a bit of extra info).

So that should be another factor. Taking knowledge which was used and removing it from society. It could have several statuses
1) Common: Everyone knows it
2) Professional: People of a profession would know it
3) Expert: A very knowledgable person (Modern day equivolent would be Survival)
4) Esoteric:
5) Hidden: It is stored somewhere in society but no one, or next to no one. Knows anything about it. Societies without writing cannot have hidden knowledge.
6) Lost: It is officially gone. Only the source would have it. It thus needs to be rediscovered.

Ehh, maybe a bit too artificial. Though what is this space for but to smooth out rough edges?

[Tigershark13]

hm... well if you had rises and falls (RL example, when the roman empire fell in the west we lost the ability to concrete and build roads among other things) and real reasons for the technology to be changed as well as accidental discoveries ect... it could be good, so long as you don't go down the RTS route...

[Granite26]

generic statusi aren't the DF way!!!  Track what every individual knows!!!  That way, you can choose between training your dwarves on new skills (send out for Smithing for Dummies) or train their actual ability.

They might only 'learn' skills when they go up a level (whatever they've practiced the most) plus one or two slots for free radical knowledge.

That way, the lost smith from whereever would be legendary in skill, but might not know many tricks.  He'd have a few available slots to learn (2*levels ish?) so he'd pick up a few things right quick, but after that, he'd be the old dog.  A dwarf raised in the culture would be using/exposed to these tricks by the other smiths, so would develop them all early on.

Legendary dwarves would be a good place to place knowledge gain:  They'd develop a random new technique involving the materials they used in their artifact, which would then be available to the whole fort.  If it was useful, it would spread, otherwise it would die out with the dwarf.   Even if it wasn't useful, you could, at cost, keep training it in new smiths.

Possibly this could even be a personality trait:  How much the dwarf likes useless knowledge in his area.  The more he likes it, the more likely he is to immigrate with rarer skills

Note:  By knowledge, I mean tricks that (order of magnitude) add +.01 to the amount of usable metal produced

[praguepride]

In their own way, artifacts ARE the DF form of research. Suddenly a dwarf has a "brilliant idea" and murders another dwarf uses unusual materials in a nontraditional usage to make a dwarf anvil or a silk statue or some other fantastical device.

At this point because artifacts are just pretty things to spruce up the room, it doesn't seem like that, but when you have that bag that you can store 3x as many items in, or that statue that radiates healing waves, you'll think "boy, if only dwarves were smart enough to replicate these marvelous inventions!"

[Granite26]

I'm thinking somewhere in between.  You can't build another x3 bag, but you can build a x1.1 bag by using an extra thread (or silver scissors)

Keeps artifacts magical...