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[mickel]

There have been suggestions that touched upon this, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

Picture different technology levels of of workshops. A smelter is a good example.

A really low level smelter consists of a simple camp fire or similar fire, with some sort of vessel for separating metal from slag. This is what the earliest ones looked like and is quite sufficient for some ores. I imagine copper and tin would work well.

The higher up in technology level, the more advanced the workshop, the more materials are needed for it, and eventually you'll get to the point where you actually need materials produced in a lower level workshop to build a higher level one. (Or you could buy them from someone else, of course.)

Different civilizations would have different tech levels, which are of course moderated by the materials available to them, as well as other circumstances. (A completely isolated settlement in a peaceful valley isn't going to spend a lot of resources on advanced weaponry.)

In the above example, ratmen might have been able to learn how to extract bronze and tin, and maybe even smelt them together to bronze, but maybe not more.

The dwarves, on the other hand, could have advanced blast furnaces for steel production, etc.

[FaultyLogic]

I guess it's logical but I don't know if I feel it is important or would add much enjoyment to the game really.

Maybe different civ's just would have different workshops.

[Shades]

Don't we already have this, like a magma smelter needs steel so you need to have build the 'low tech' basic smelter first to get that.

Personally I much prefer this method than 'tech trees' used by lots of games, I know it amounts to the same thing but you feel like there is a reason this way  

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Ben:
<STRONG>Don't we already have this, like a magma smelter needs steel so you need to have build the 'low tech' basic smelter first to get that.
</STRONG>

I notice now "tech level" was a very unfortunate term. It suggests, as you point out, a tech tree, which wasn't what I wanted.

What I did want to suggest is what you already pointed out exists, but farther and deeper implemented. Going from nothing to a steel smelter without anything but rock and wood is a pretty long leap. Certainly I suspect a dwarven expedition would contain both the know-how and the (abstracted away) tools to set up a steel smelter, but goblins?

Although perhaps almost as technologically advanced as dwarves, I somehow don't see goblins having the same infrastructure as the dwarves. The dwarves might be able to bootstrap their metallurgy industry to go from zero to blast furnace, but I'd expect "lesser races" to have to work themselves up.

[ August 23, 2007: Message edited by: mickel ]

[Haedrian]

I suggest a scientist noble (or the philosopher could do it), who walks around examining the workshops, and bit by bit improving how they work, making them faster.

That's all I'd like to see, wouldn't want to be hindered by low tech (as in, can't make certain things)

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>
What I did want to suggest is what you already pointed out exists, but farther and deeper implemented. Going from nothing to a steel smelter without anything but rock and wood is a pretty long leap. Certainly I suspect a dwarven expedition would contain both the know-how and the (abstracted away) tools to set up a steel smelter, but goblins?

Although perhaps almost as technologically advanced as dwarves, I somehow don't see goblins having the same infrastructure as the dwarves. The dwarves might be able to bootstrap their metallurgy industry to go from zero to blast furnace, but I'd expect "lesser races" to have to work themselves up.
</STRONG>

The only tools a dwarf needed were his axe and some means of making fire. That’d eventually get him a forge, and with that he could make simple tools, and with those he could make complex tools, and with complex tools a dwarf could make more or less anything.
-- Terry Pratchett, The Truth

The dwarves don't actually bootstrap from zero; they bootstrap from an anvil, which is a fairly advanced piece of technology.  They can do this because, as you said, they have infrastructure.

As for goblins, I see them as a scavenger civilization.  Dwarves start with ore; goblins start with scrap metal.  Goblins don't make anvils; they steal them, or take over abandoned dwarf mines.

Now that would be an interesting play mode: "Goblin Town", where you start in the ruins of a human or dwarven (or elven, for a real challenge) town.  You can dig tunnels through dirt (this includes underground farms), but you can't mine rock, so your only sources of metal or stone are trade and armed robbery.  Your breeding rate is very high, and your expectations of happiness are very low, so it's easy to survive at first, but eventually, the nearby cities will try to wipe you out.  See how long you last.

[mickel]

The anvil has nothing to do with smelting though. As was discussed in some other thread, the temperatures needed for making steel are quite high. You won't get it with a cooking fire.

[Baney]

Sounds like ti would be an interesting approach to the game, I've read threads about self-challenge starts where you start with nothing but food, try to make your first weapons.. I'm personally not experienced enough to give that a try(still have trouble farming and mining)

But I think that a tech tree would have really helped me out playing the game..

First: do this,
THEN, Do this,

Not a tech tree to assign arbitrary Points to, but the tree that explains what to make to make the next step.

Tools for all sorts of aspects of the game would be far more interesting.. Ok, I know dwarves are known for their great skills with an Axe, but surely carving rock requires the smaller chisel? some Hammers and Nails for Carpentry?

I mean, dont get me wrong I love the game, but I think I'm more of the Next Gen of gamers who'll be playing when its more.. commercial..?

[Silverionmox]

The requirements for steel forges must be reevaluated anyway. It should require more fuel, maybe a dedicated furnace or two, additional bellows made at the leatherworker's workshop, crucibles etc. Steel will be distinctly dwarven, so it wouldn't hurt to put a lot of effort in it, gamewise.

I would limit the dwarven steel-making ability with the bessemer process, though. Because mass production of steel = micromanagement hell.

[Othob Rithol]

Necro

[Align]

Incidentally, we no longer need to use steel anvils in our magma smelters (iron works fine). What gives?

[qwertyuiopas]

TO get the tech tree effect, all we need is to be able to create our own workshops and add special materials to the requirements, such as a material called low_tech...

[Qmarx]

quote:Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>Incidentally, we no longer need to use steel anvils in our magma smelters (iron works fine). What gives?</STRONG>

Iron has a higher melting point.

[Capntastic]

If you want explicit tech levels like Civilization where you need to research <Thing> before you can do <Thing> then it hinders the freeform gameplay DF tries to cultivate, and takes out a lot of the sandboxy-ness.   If I have the materials and such to build something, I should be able to, barring some obvious limitations.

If you want implied tech levels, DF already has those- dwarves make things, kobolds steal things dwarves make, elves live in trees.   It's also supported by the simple requirement to build something being the posession of the proper material and workshop.

In the future, as described by the devnotes, different cultures will have different styles and preferences.  But to make it explicit so that only the Northern Kingdoms can make crossbows or something, or to force you to build a library and research 'Democracy' before you can make a certain type of glass or whatever would be dumb.

So, overall, depending on how you define tech levels, they're either already in the game or something that would make quite a few people upset.

[Quift]

I like this suggestion. To use simple workshops to build the basic components of the better workshop which can produce even better workshop parts to build an advanced workshop is both logical, freeform and challenging.

1 Simle rock build a basic mason, wher to turn a rock into basic blocks
2 from a simle rock block you build a simple furnace to make iron bars, uses loads of charcoal.
3 Iron bars and good quality blocks to make a better furnace, the better furnace makes higher quality bars, and uses less coal.
4 Wood block and Iron axe to make a good carpentry workshop
5 In the advanced carpentry shop you create a new material called Carpentry desk or something
6 Build a boyers workshop using a wood block, carpentry tools, and a carpentry desk. the same materials can also build the final Carpentry workshop (where everything would be of decent quality, and build times reduced.

and so on. there should be component parts needed to build some workshops to represent the better tools there. so a production chain could be established where you start out with basic forges for basic demands, and in the end you have large industrial forges, using 5x5 tiles and that create 5 items in every production order by 2 dwarves.