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[Deathbane]

However, can i point out that we cannot use anything regrading evolution in the DF world? Everything was created as it is. The only laws that apply are natural selection and adaption, not evolution.

However, social constructivism is basically supporting the idea of objective moral truths. Albeit, ones that are not objective in the traditional sense. For example, If  morality is set by the goblins conditions, physical conditions in the raws, then that is objective morality in a sense, as their is a natural universal law. Its just that its different for the differing races. Its not 'relativistic', in that 'whats good for me is good, and what is bad is evil', but rather more like an ruleset given to each side.. Its designed and set, a different OBJECTIVE moral code for each civilisation, in order for them to respond to each other in various ways.

These OBJECTIVE codes have been designed into the game. The Demons have been PROGRAMMED to be evil. They dont care about the goblins, they are just a means to an end. It is an assumption to assume that the goblins are furthering the goblin race any more than humans playing with playing pieces in a game of chess care about pawns.Im sure the demon would love to torture them if they wernt needed, this can be seen in its own personality folder.

Just as Elves have been programmed to care for the forest. And hate dwarves with a passion because of it.

What im trying to say is that since Dwarf Fortress is coded, it would probably be better analysing why the goblins /demons exist in the first place, which are to be the antagonists in a grand play.

*Also* Utilitarianism cannot be a solid basis for moral judgement - as it can be used to support the most heinous of crimes humanity can commit.

[PTTG??]

Is that term used from an exernal, anthropological perspective? I mean this in the sense of examining a culture, not in a sense of my personal philosophical beliefs.
That said, I do feel that way, and it's rather nice to know that I'm either Utilitarian or Constructivist or something else.

Deathbane; quite true, but I think this may have diverged into more open-ended fantasy world morality discussion. Perhaps Toady One will get a few ideas to implement here? Anyway, I thought it was implied that before worldgen takes place, everybody evolves and forms the first few bands that start the game; The Raws aren't part of the mythology.

EDIT: got rid of joke.

Sorry, I need to mention something here:
"*Also* Utilitarianism cannot be a solid basis for moral judgement - as it can be used to support the most heinous of crimes humanity can commit."
Well, so can Christianity, Atheism, Zen Buddhism and Scientology. That's not saying anything about the viability of any belief system. Besides, this is not a discussion of belief systems. This is a discussion of theories of studying belief systems. We aren't using Utilitarianism or Constructivism or Functional Morality to decide what to do, we're using them to figure out how Goblins would decide what to do- and don't get the wrong idea here, I'm not saying that goblins ARE Constructo-tarian or whatever. Goblins are goblins.

[Deathbane]

lol! Ill remember that one!

I dont know what toady one or threetoe invisage, but i believe that the player is acting in the supreme God role. Since we can control how the world is to be pregenerated, and what is ultiamtely populating the world (by raws), we are therefore in control of the old mythology. If for example, i smite dwarfs out the game, wouldnt that have a great impact on the mythology? The mythology is what comes in the Age of Myth. Before year one, like the big bang, there was nothing!

The starting groups simply appear out what seems to be thin air, which is actually a complex codebase regulating their behaviour.

It really messes with my head thinking about this. If we as Gods can do this to albeit a small, very uncomplicated in comparison to our own world, then it isnt a long philosophical shot to think of ourselves being in a similar situation. I just hope our 'Gods' arnt as abusive as some dwarf fortress players if this is the case 

Butcher Human anyone?

*edit* i didnt see your edit ! sorry!

I wasnt very clear in what i said. by regulating on a moral objective system, like virtue ethics, you can get a much safer moral theory to base a society on than utilitarianism. That is what i meant, i was not arguing for any
other arguement. Its hard to explain what i mean in type! its so much better in speech. In this way, we can avoid the goal oriented direction of utilitariansim and simply saying an action was good because it is right, which i suppose bring sus onto deontology. Anyhows, yes ive got off the point! The only way to evaluate it in DF terms is to ask, what affect does the morality have on the world behavior? its obvious that the moral paradigms in DF are there to cause conflict, providing the player opportunity in the gameplay.

[Zaratustra]

Morality in DF right now is divided in two layers: Ethical values, such as 'eating dead people is acceptable/unacceptable', and actual Good and Evil, which cover the land like frost and affect the very nature of the creatures dwelling therein. Do evil creatures gravitate towards evil terrain, or is the terrain made evil by their presence? I think it's currently the former.

It's the nature vs. nurture debate. A goblin can presumably be morally opposed to slavery and killing if he was raised by the proper parents, but it'd be an uphill battle: The feather trees make him uncomfortable, like an Eskimo child brought up in a tropical climate, and the black fields of blood and death call to him.

[Deathbane]

Ah, but you are wrong. The land itself can be evil, with a collective spirit. if you were to read threetoes stories, you would understand that this can be so! In fact, both are true, cuasing large collections and focal points for evil. If evil is a force, then it has to be objective as it has objective physical presence, like gravity. If the demons are therefore evil, they are objectively evil. Subsequently, the Goblins are a tool for evil.

Goblins therefore, are objectively evil if they are made up of this force in some way. if they are not, and are merely slaves, thats another can of worms!

[Jude]

Why are demons supernatural? There is apparently no magic in the DF universe (yet) so what makes the demons more than mundane? To me they just seem to be another form of creature that follows the rules of that universe; they just apparently have a lot of power and abilities. Nothing about them really seems magical though.

[Deathbane]

Threetoes storys suggest otherwise.

The same magic that keeps zombies alive, and animates skeletal carp. Spirits which possess dwarves. Creatures that breathe fire, and dont come from the same world as dwarves, but are released from the underworld. ones that are immortal. And wizards ar ein the game, just they dont spawn, and we have regional forces.

We are playing the same game right?

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

there was supposed to be magic and if you look in the entitys somewhere there is a wizard. demons are im most things the embodyment of evil not a creature of emence evil but evil itself. also while evolution does not happen so much there is a limited amount of it through the fact that certain settlements live and others dont. while this is not on the single creature level it is on the species level. dwarfs that make a settlement right next to a gob tower in a place with an aquifer and no easily accesible rocks will quickly die just like one in a peaceful place with lots of metal and rock will thrive. this will create the civilizations as they stand kinda like the civ was the creature and all the little people in it are the cells.

[Deathbane]

But that isn't evolution. Its natural selection, but your right in that regard. Also, the presence of elementals suggests a magical element. Once again though, we are offtopic :p

And just like real life, its less natural 'selection' and more natural luck. A single human can defend against nigh on 1000's of elves with the right lucky streak.

[eerr]

the thing is, evil in dwarf fortress seems entirely self-destructive, usually it hurts the goblins and demons and elves far more than it helps them, so they must have a damn good reason to do it all the time

[Neonivek]

Why are demons supernatural? There is apparently no magic in the DF universe (yet) so what makes the demons more than mundane? To me they just seem to be another form of creature that follows the rules of that universe; they just apparently have a lot of power and abilities. Nothing about them really seems magical though.

Beyond the fact that they are much more powerful then they should be and are capable of breaking physics... Threetoe's stories also include them capable of great magical feats such as summons. Toady has also speculated on Demons being capable of bringing themselves back to life after a hundred years or so.

[JoshuaFH]

Why are demons supernatural? There is apparently no magic in the DF universe (yet) so what makes the demons more than mundane? To me they just seem to be another form of creature that follows the rules of that universe; they just apparently have a lot of power and abilities. Nothing about them really seems magical though.

Beyond the fact that they are much more powerful then they should be and are capable of breaking physics... Threetoe's stories also include them capable of great magical feats such as summons. Toady has also speculated on Demons being capable of bringing themselves back to life after a hundred years or so.

that would make my 10,000 year old worlds WAY more interesting.

[Archaeologist]

I'm more interested in the ambiguities of Goblin society myself...