Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Thoughts on Dye  (Read 1538 times)

Impaler[WrG]

  • Bay Watcher
  • Khazad Project Leader
    • View Profile
Thoughts on Dye
« on: December 07, 2008, 11:31:09 pm »

I've been doing some research on Dye and Dyeing and how it can be better represented in DF.

Their is currently a rather limited system that's narrowly focused on cloth, what we should be thinking of is an all encompassing PIGMENT system which covers all color altering practices.  Cloth dyeing would be a part of that system but other things that can be colored would also be included.  I've been brainstorming on this and narrowed everything down to four categories.  All Pigments would have the ability to be used in at least one of these ways but some could be used for multiple categories.

Animal Fiber - Any thing that is protein based animal hair such as wool, protein tends to bind with other molecules well and a wide variety of things can color it, not presently in the game but expected to be included some day (resent improvements in creatures raws should facilitate this).  Wool was in fact the primary source of cloth in the medieval Europe.

Plant Fiber - Anything that is cellulose based like cotton, presently in the game and the dominant type of cloth.  This category also includes whole wood for purposes of staining and varnishing.  Cellulose tends to be harder to stain with fewer possibly dyes that require stronger chemicals.

Skin - Anything that is or was skin, bone or horn, Tattoos on living creatures or staining leather fall under this category.  Parchment was the dominant writing material of the middle ages and is a form of skin thus falls in this category.  Plant based paper might also be included here just for simplicity sake of having all ink be interchangeably, most ink was in fact used on on parchment and paper interchangeably.

Hard Surfaces - The final category is not based on a single material because the defining property here is that the material dose not bond with the pigment.  Stone, metal glass and other inert materials can only be colored by mixing pigment with something that will stick to the surface of the material aka Paint.  Various binding ages have been used such as egg yoke (tempra paint), oil, wax, gum and in the case of Frescoes the plaster itself is the binding agent.  Most mineral based pigments fall in this category as they are chemically stable and can't attach without a binding agent.

Some of you may have noticed that silk is missing and this is intentional, my research shows that silk is able to 'dual-class' and accept anything that would dye either Plant or Animal fibers making it superior to either.

For the first three categories a number of additional chemicals are needed to dye most things and these chemicals are called mordants.  My research shows at least a half dozen such chemicals and I'm still sorting through how they were historically used and made but its clear that some abstraction is necessary to make something that the player will have any hope of using.  More on that stuff some day in the future, for now what do people think of the 4 categories as a basis for the dying and coloring of all things?
Logged
Khazad the Isometric Fortress Engine
Extract forts from DF, load and save them to file and view them in full 3D

Khazad Home Thread
Khazad v0.0.5 Download

Warlord255

  • Bay Watcher
  • Master Building Designer
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 02:14:31 am »

Remember that, for all its complexity, this is a game where goats are represented by the letter "g", and goblins are also represented by the letter "g".

Now, expanding dye into paint might be worthwhile, whatever applications that could be used for.
Logged
DF Vanilla-Spice Revised: Better balance, more !!fun!!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173907.msg7968772#msg7968772

LeadfootSlim on Steam, LeadfootSlim#1851 on Discord. Hit me up!

Pilsu

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 06:18:37 am »

I don't really miss the ability to dye leather midnight blue

Dye is of little use right now except making money. You can't see it and everything ends up being the same color anyway since it's so hard to manage. Those need to be fixed and additional dyes added into the game before it's worth improving. Maybe the royalty would start demanding sensible things like good quality clothes in their favorite color by then
Logged

Draco18s

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 04:56:03 pm »

Goblin in goat's clothing?
Logged

Warlord255

  • Bay Watcher
  • Master Building Designer
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 05:12:09 pm »

I don't really miss the ability to dye leather midnight blue

Dye is of little use right now except making money. You can't see it and everything ends up being the same color anyway since it's so hard to manage. Those need to be fixed and additional dyes added into the game before it's worth improving. Maybe the royalty would start demanding sensible things like good quality clothes in their favorite color by then

It is somewhat frustrating; without an intense graphics mod, there is no way to differentiate professions and display colored clothing at the same time.

You CAN use dye for colored ropes, which can be useful for decoration/imprisonment/livestock, but beyond that and bags it's fairly useless.

If you (read:Toady) really wanted to, a toggle key to display clothing color and profession color would work.
Logged
DF Vanilla-Spice Revised: Better balance, more !!fun!!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173907.msg7968772#msg7968772

LeadfootSlim on Steam, LeadfootSlim#1851 on Discord. Hit me up!

Footkerchief

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Juffo-Wup is strong in this place.
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 05:19:32 pm »

It is somewhat frustrating; without an intense graphics mod, there is no way to differentiate professions and display colored clothing at the same time.

You CAN use dye for colored ropes, which can be useful for decoration/imprisonment/livestock, but beyond that and bags it's fairly useless.

If you (read:Toady) really wanted to, a toggle key to display clothing color and profession color would work.

Displaying colored clothing is harder than you think, mostly cause creatures tend to wear multiple types of clothing, and in multiple layers.  I have a palette-swapping method worked out that would allow as much precision as the tile artist was willing to draw, possibly including different sprites for each clothing/tissue layer on each body part (i.e. you can tell exactly where a zombie's skin is missing).  But yeah, the profession colors are difficult.  I asked Dystopian Rhetoric and he said you could either a) make the tools bigger, b) use some kind of "badge" in the tile (basically requires 24x24 or 32x32), or c) outline the creature with a "glow" for the profession color.

The only programming required for this would be some code to "assemble" the tile from the component sprites specified in the raws and swap in the colors, plus maybe some simple code to generate a fringe glow.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 05:38:13 pm by Footkerchief »
Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 05:33:34 pm »

I don't really miss the ability to dye leather midnight blue

Dye is of little use right now except making money. You can't see it and everything ends up being the same color anyway since it's so hard to manage. Those need to be fixed and additional dyes added into the game before it's worth improving. Maybe the royalty would start demanding sensible things like good quality clothes in their favorite color by then

I agree completely. DF is an ASCII based game, so having colored clothes/shoes/whatever is kinda pointless, except if there is a good reason to color those items. Like you've said, nobles should demand X clothes in Y color, or even ordinary dwarves should buy colored stuffs. Urist McDwarf likes the color red, so once he has the money, he runs to the dyer who will color his shirt to red.  :)
Logged

Immortal

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on Dye
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 06:34:52 pm »

I like the paint idea alot. I would love to be able to paint all that shit colored stone(mudstone and others) into a nice grey like the rest of my normal fortress. Also painting murals on floors would be so much simpler no more removing floors and bunker busting your fortress, now I can just paint over it again and again untill it looks good. Maybe to add on that you could paint symbols of your choice.
Logged