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[Tormy]

Anyway... I like the way DF is heading and don't think that it was more fun before, except for one thing:  critters don't respawn.  Dealing with attacks from the chasm and magma was fun, as was dealing with rampaging hordes of angry wildlife.  Without these ongoing challenges it's very easy to "subdue" a map into tedium.

That's actually a good point, I know the respawn issue came  up often already and that  Toady is going to address it at some point, but I can't remember him giving a reply on what exactly the issues are. Anyone knows? Why not simply have creatures respawn from time to time (at least those that enter the map from outside), even just as a temporary solution? Or are wildlife actually taken from the world gen population and don't breed properly?

edit: Just to clarify, "can't remember him giving a reply" wasn't a implied critique, but meant just literally. So if anyone has a link at hand, let me know.

I agree, all creatures -especially chasm creatures and wildlife- should respawn. I am also not sure about that these creatures are breeding or not at all...
They should for sure...and yes I think that Toady knows about this problem also.

[niltrias]

I am definitely fully in support of the way the game is going.   3d is way better than 2d.  I do miss the graduation, tho.  I actually tried to play 2d a few weeks ago again, just to get the feeling of increasing danger as I moved deeper into the mountain...only to give up in disgust when I realized how much the stone impeded my workshop building.
But I think we can have our cake and eat it too.  instead of just a few adamantium  (sp)?  sites, why not make each level  going down progressively likely to have nastier critters and more/better ore?then you{d always be afreaid of making that next downstairs link....

Historians do not have all the details, but the basic facts seem clear.  In Axehaven, the dwarfs, once again, dug too deep...

[dreiche2]

the problem is i think that they can't climb out ... so befor this climbing should be implemented so they can come from the deep  (and to be honest without climbing they aren't a real treat to dwarfes ...)

well that's for chasm critters, there's still cave river creatures, and the wild life, which as far as I know gets extinct, too, after some time... right?

edit: haven't seen second page

I agree, all creatures -especially chasm creatures and wildlife- should respawn. I am also not sure about that these creatures are breeding or not at all...
They should for sure...and yes I think that Toady knows about this problem also.

From what I've heard wild life does breed, but only while on the map, and apart from water creatures the animals usually don't stay/survive long enough to do so...

[Tormy]

From what I've heard wild life does breed, but only while on the map, and apart from water creatures the animals usually don't stay/survive long enough to do so...

Yeah that I what I thought, and its a problem. All creatures should breed in the world. However I am not sure if it would slow down the game or not. Well I guess it would, since the engine would have to track down ALL creatures in the world and keep monitoring them constantly. [CPU -> FPS related stuff] Hopefully Toady can solve this problem somehow.

*Edit*

However, once the Army Arc will be functional, the engine will have to track / monitor loads of creatures anyways, since civs will keep expanding in "real time", wage wars etc. etc.
So maybe it wont be much of a problem to implement this creature world breeding stuff...

[Zemat]

I'm with you all on the problems with chasm creatures. Right now they seem just to be there to kill your FPS (on big maps).

What's missing from the 2d version is the coordinated attack from beastmen. In fact that should be something able to be defined per creature type in the raws somehow. Uncivilized but intelligent wild creatures should form groups and ambush your fort now and then if they feel that your fort is encroaching their nesting places or simply because they have a taste for dorf meat.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I never played 2D. But I've read alot about it and listened to people talk about it, read Boatmurdered, looked at a bunch of maps, and so I think I understand the map layout at least and what each barrier meant when you played.

And I think that while DF is progressing toward a grander vision, that simpler kind of gameplay might still be enjoyable. You know how people play simple flash games for fun? Even though the graphics aren't top-notch and the game only lasts a few minutes? Well I think a flash version of 2D DF would be pretty cool even if it's only a spiritual conversion.

[Idiom]

The 2D was more of a game. More like an arcade game. It was fairly easy to pick up (more-so than now), and had some guaranteed nostalgia every map. You could refine your approach to each challenge every game.

The 3D version is now more of a simulation.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Idiom: I am not sure what you mean with easier to pick up. While z-levels are kind of a complication, the simplified surface farming makes more than up for that. I remember that in 2D it took quite some try and error to get the balance to get past the first winter without a major tantrum chain and the need for irrigation put more than one fortress to a watery grave. In 3D, food is obtained extremely easily - even hunting works properly!!

As for the general discussion here, I am not sure whether I can agree with the original supposition. It is true that some built-in features have died (like specialized ruins for adventurer mode), but they have gotten their replacement (albeit sometimes in a weakened form).

If you want diversity/interesting things in your fortress mode game, make sure that you have at least two biomes in your embark site, preferably more. And don't use the site locator and have all features hidden (or only finder revealed).

Sure, you are running the risk of not having certain fun features, but you will only know after you have thoroughly explored the map.

Also, I don't think that the current game is terribly standardized/boring, even in its standard conditions.

Initially, you have to deal with the surface structure, either levelling hills or integrating them into your defenses. If there is a surface brook or river (shudder), you may also wish to consider that.

Then you have to explore the deeper layers of the map without really knowing what to expect. You may find good stuff or bad stuff and you have to figure out how to make the most out of it.

And finally, if you don't exploit the over-powered cage traps, the interaction with the goblins and megabeasts is bound to be improved as they tend to have learned from the past.

In adventurer mode, while special sites and the easy wars are not present, there can be more to discover in the history of the world. And there are always little surprises (like a mayor in a town of a friendly civ consistantly killing your adventurers on sight).

If anything, you may say that fortress mode has become easier and together with exploits like the cage traps, it can be too easy. But if you don't use such exploits and don't turn your adventurer into a master thrower of vomit, I think the game has both challenge and diversity enough in its current form.

At least these are my thoughts, and I don't really miss the 2D times, sorry.

Deathworks

[Idiom]

When I try to get people into DF, they have a hard time grasping the 3D aspects looking at a slew of characters on a 2D plane. They always kill themselves playing with fluids. 3D is MUCH easier not to die of starvation and etc, but there's more to grasp. One of my buddies was so excited when he finally "mastered the stairs" (Ramps was the next challenge for him. Had to show him a diagram or two before he understood how multi-z-level stuff worked). Nearly every embark location requires you to try something a bit different, which is simply a pain when trying to learn the game.

I personally never had trouble getting my fort up and going in the 2D. Only took me my 2nd fort to get it right. Miners only being able to exit channels out the ends, not the sides is what killed my first.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Thank you for the clarification, Idiom.

Like Goran, I also spend some time thinking and I remembered some other things.

Back in 2D, most people on the forums seemed to have magma forges at the end of their first year or they would abandon their fortress, so to speak.

I don't know about you, but having something by the end of year 1 makes things pretty much instantly available in my eyes. After all, magma forges mean that you have also got the underground river and the chasm, and there is only the game-ending stuff left to find.

So, that progression in game-play seems to have been non-present in 2D for experienced gamers as well. I think we have here a lot of nostalgic romanticizing going on.

Personally, I think that looking backward at such a mythological age will not really get us satisfied in the end. We will probably only see that "Things were better in the old days" is simply not true.

What the game really needs and which is slowly developing are more flexible local map features. Like, for instance, underground lakes or small caverns (not counted as caves in the gen settings and not home to (semi)megas. At least, that is how I see this.

Deathworks

P.S.: Is creature death so much of a problem? I have not played much in 3D (too little time and too much world genning :) :) :) :) ), but at least huntable wild life seems to come visit regularly from outside the map.