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Author Topic: [39e] Sleep=Nap  (Read 1511 times)

max

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[39e] Sleep=Nap
« on: July 25, 2008, 01:59:55 am »

I'm actually not sure if this even is a bug or a feature. I noticed dwarves only sleep for a day, two days tops. What happened to my dwarves who received concussions and slept for half a season?

There is no mod, and they are sleeping on beds if that matters. They aren't masterful, just a handful of well-crafted to superior.
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sweitx

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 08:27:42 am »

You consider your dwarf sleeping less and working more a bug?

Could be that you have constructions going on near by and woke them up.
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Furious Fish

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 08:45:33 am »

This has been happening to everyone. You're the only one to complain about it though.
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XmasApe

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 08:53:27 am »

Wait, an end to the first year "Wheee, sleep time! Guess I'll make a cup of tea." cycle is a bug?
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sorbius

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 08:55:41 am »

I think the ammount dwarves sleep has been reduced.  I am noticing the same thing.
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max

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 10:51:18 am »

If the game suddenly gave you a boon to efficiency for no expected reason following a new update, would you consider it a bug? Sure it's nice to have, but I think it breaks the cycle of the work.

The dwarves will work for weeks at a time and sleep for 2 weeks. Now we see dwarves work for weeks at a time, sleep for a day, and work for weeks at a time again.

The wiki says they're awake for 6 weeks and sleep for 2. The dwarves are asleep for 1/4th of their lives. (A decent estimation of our lives.) If applied to us, when you begin to only sleep for 1/43th of your life, maybe we shouldn't be hiding the fact that this may be a bug, regardless of how awesome it is.

I respect this game enough to see something not right and question it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 10:52:52 am by max »
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Exponent

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 11:12:52 am »

Yeah, but gameplay/fun and realism don't always go hand-in-hand.  Long periods of sleep are generally less of a challenge to overcome and more of a nuisance that you can't do anything about.  One of the key aspects to good game design is providing the players with meaningful choices.  Lengthening the duration of sleep in order to make the game more realistic does not, in my mind, allow for any meaningful choices, and in facts removes opportunities for making choices.  During the time when a dwarf is not doing anything, the player can't really be doing much either; the player has to wait for the dwarf to wake up before interesting gameplay decisions are available to be made.

However, I would not argue that sleep should be taken entirely out of the game.  The fact that dwarves need to sleep at all requires certain interesting decisions, such as choosing where they will preferably sleep.  Also, it affects how many dwarves you might want assigned to a particular task, in order to ensure that there is usually at least the minimum desired amount working on the task at any given time.  (The duration of sleep will affect the details of this decision, but the decision must be made regardless of the duration.  Longer sleep cycles will encourage more redundancy and shorter cycles will encourage less, but the player will need to consider the degree of redundancy regardless.)

Other tasks, such as eating, drinking, taking breaks, and partying, have similar effects on decisions, though each with their own set of nuances.

Additionally, these tasks, along with sleeping, provide an atmosphere or feel to the game that would certainly be missing without them.  What is needed is just the minimum amount of realism necessary to create the desirable atmosphere without dragging down gameplay.  (Some forms of realism don't negatively affect gameplay, but rather add to it, but many unfortunately do tend to hurt gameplay.)
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Tylui

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 11:21:02 am »

Are you seriously arguing that realism shouldn't be in Dwarf Fortress?  That's dumb.  Sorry, but it is.

A lot of what Toady does is pay attention to nothing but excruciating detail.

I believe that Dwarves should sleep for longer than they did before.  Or if not for longer, just more frequent cycles of sleep.  Sleep definitely shouldn't be taken OUT of the game, nor made shorter. :/
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max

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 11:30:15 am »

No, I agree with both of you. Exponent did eloquently demonstrate that gameplay sometimes forces realism to take a backseat. Though what I didn't catch was his opinion on the matter of sleeping that lasts a few seconds. I see an irony in arguing extending sleep to 2 weeks for realism, but at the same time I see that sleep for a day trivializes sleeping itself.

It's true that realism has a real influence on Dwarf Fortress, such as water pressure, fight sequences, chemical reactions, etc. But we also are playing a world of fantasy.

But the argument of realism v gameplay was a digression from the point. I assume I didn't make a good example in stating that 1/43th of the dwarfs like is spent sleeping. That's a bit more than 2% and regardless of realism or not, a tax that deducts merely 2% from a vast fortress can be easily overlooked, not by skill or task managing, but by the shear act of ignoring sleep.
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Zombie

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 01:13:39 pm »

I've gotten an influx of migrants recently (2 immigration parties one season after another!) that bumped my fortress up to pop 50. Of course, I only had 24 beds prepared. :P

I've noticed that dwarves that do NOT sleep in their beds seem to sleep longer than dwarves that DO sleep in their beds. I've actually gone to do something near the quarters and seen one sleeping, then went off to micromanage my mining operations for a minute... I came back to check on how the smoothing was going and that dwarf was still sleeping away.

It could be that your dwarves are being woken up or something. I don't see much of a difference in the sleep cycle, personally. Beds are empty most of the time, then some of them toddle on over to take a nap for a few minutes. Then they get up and get back to work.

My main concern is that the beds are being used. If they're being used for a minute or so, then that validates their use. If dwarves being woken up makes them cranky and less productive, that's even more awesome. If sleeping on the ground does the same but to a larger magnitude, that's great too.

I think it's not so much the exact length of the sleep cycle, it's more of a question of "Is it long enough to make an impact?" and "How does it affect their moods?"
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max

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 05:47:21 pm »

That's kind of easy to test for myself so here's what happened:

I started out a game with the standard 7 dwarves. I'm no longer in a rush to build beds so I placed a meeting area outside away from the digging my 2 miners were doing. (About 30 tiles away respecting the square nature of noise in http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Noise). After waiting for several  minutes, dwarves started falling asleep. Yet on the dirt floor, Urdim slept for about two days. A day lasts about 15 seconds and I average about 80 FPS. To double check that Urdim was not woken by noise, I checked his thoughts:
"Urdim Tomemkeskal has been happy lately. He slept in the dirt recently. He had a fine drink lately. He ate a pretty decent meal lately. He talked with a friend lately. He complained of the lack of chairs lately."

For the two questions you present, I'd place dwarven moods to the least of the worries, since when has anyone cared about what they think! And the entire topic is questioning the length that is made in the sleep cycle as of [39e].  So to answer your question, "Is it long enough to make an impact?" No. Forgoing any quest for the perfect length of time, I would have to logically guess that 2 ingame days of sleep is a negligible tax.
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Apoco

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Re: [39e] Sleep=Nap
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 06:39:30 pm »

Dwarfs now take breaks longer than the time they spend sleeping. i agree with max that they just spend way to little time sleeping, yes its annoying in the beginning with your first 7 dwarfs but even after that first immigration wave you rather  have a time where all of your dwarfs are asleep and by the 2nd or 3rd wave it never happens(at least for me iv never had 40 or more dwarfs suddenly decide to have a sleeping party)
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