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Author Topic: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.  (Read 811 times)

Tiler

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Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« on: July 13, 2008, 08:42:40 pm »

I've been lurking this forum for a long time, and I just randomly decided to sign up today and start vomiting my opinion all over the place, and I'm going to continue my tantrum by making a list of all the ideas I think would be cool to implement in DF. I think they're all realistically usable, and I also think they wouldn't take too much trouble to implement at the current stage.

Your millage may vary.

-Nerfing Bows And Crossbows-
Arrows and bolts have historically been very devastating weapons, and it's far too common to see them shown in popular fiction as little else but flying splinters. It's nice to see a game that gives them the proper respect for their killing power they richly deserve. However, as most everyone knows, they are more like tiny thunderbolts from the heavens more than arrows in their current incarnation. And I also know there are already several ideas that have been proposed to stop novice archers from hitting people in both lungs and their liver at the same time with a single bolt. I'm probably going to repeat them all, but so be it.
The most obvious idea is to make it so arrows can only hit one organ at a time. I don't know if this is actually possible with the current code, but it'd make arrows both weaker and the whole deal a bit more realistic. Second, I think armor needs to be much more effective in stopping arrows. Historically, even something simple as quilted armor could save a soldier's life in war; I've read testimonies from Muslims during the crusades writing about how the Crusader's quilted armor would allow them to take 5 arrows to the chest and still be able to walk around. Plate armor, especially, should be more resistant to the power of arrows, since they were explicitly and cleverly designed to deflect all sorts of blows, namely, arrows. Unless the arrow hit the plate at the exactly correct manner with enough power behind it, it would simply glance off the soldier. I would like to see Crossbows be more effective than arrows against armor, however, so this idea, I think, should only impact bows and arrows.
The last idea I have to offer would be the biggest counterbalance, and would serve to balance the crossbow's superior performance against armor versus the bow. And that would just be reload times. There should be two seperate stages for firing bows and crossbows. 'Firing', which would cover aiming and, in the case of the bow, pulling the bowstring back, and 'readying', which would be the act of getting another arrow/bolt, and in the case of crossbows, wrenching the string back and locking the mechanism. Firing would take a bit longer for bows, since they'd need to pull back the string, but readying should be cripplingly long for crossbows. This would both help to weaken both bows and arrows, and to diversify crossbows from bows.
Oh, and have damage from Bows be based on Strength, while have damage from Crossbows be based on Agility. I don't actually know how damage is computed from those things, but I think that would work. :I
Summery: Stop having arrows/bolts hit 2+ organs, make arrows weaker against armor, make it longer to fire bows/xbows by adding a 'readying' phase.

-Time Scale Issues-
I've stopped to think about it, and I'm left very bemused on how dwarves only sleep around twice a season, but sleep around a week each time. And how they are able to dig out a giant, self-sustaining mountianhome in the order of a three seasons. And how, in around three-to-six years, the place can become the capital of a 1050 year old civilization, churning out masterwork artifacts, and full of legendary heroes.
I don't know exactly what the alternative to this is, but I can't help but think that it doesn't make any damn sense whatsoever. And it makes it a huge pain in the arse when dwarves have children, since I've never had the patience to see any native born dwarves become adults. Maybe just get rid of seasons and have the years change at the same speed seasons do. But then that just screws with everything. Gah.
All in all, I think skills should develop much less slowly than they are now. Of course, since time moves so slowly in Fortresses in general, this may not work without having to butcher the current time system. But having a fortress full of legendary masons, smiths, soldiers, and whatnot is rater ridiculous when you reflect that the people were just peasents five years back. Becoming skilled, much less legendary, should require a lifetime of toil out of the dwarf. For soldiers, this should also mean that they can't become ultra skilled veterans capable of killing Dragons with their loins just by wrestling with each other for a few years. In the real world and historically, training for a year or so was required just so you would stop soiling yourself at the start of the battle. There should also be a point where a dwarf just won't get better without real combat experience.
Summery: Time moves both way too slowly and way too quickly. It makes my brain hurt. Slow down skill growth.

-Sieges and the Dead's Equipment-
Have less of them and make them more important. As it is, you can just sell all the goblin's armor and weapons and get everything you need from trade caravans, and still have huge piles of the trash just rusting away.
Having clothing/armor get damaged or destroyed in the fighting would work to, since you'd either have to repair it or smelt it instead of just selling it for 300 cages full of cows.
As having more 'important' sieges, I'm just touting what's already been said forever. Goblins with siege equipment and some method of posing a threat to trap laden fortresses with internal farms and water supplies.
Summery: Just what's already been said by everyone else, ever.

-Military Units-
Considering that most people recommend assigning individual dwarves to their own unit, I think there should be some reason to have them all be best buddies. I think the best one would be being able to have them be able to organize into a formation. You'd select 'Formation' in the unit menu, and then be presented with grid with an arrow pointed upwards. You'd then place the units on the grid so that, when deployed, you'd tell them to face a direction, and they'd do their best to emulate the formation you gave them. This would allow you to, say, place your units in a defensive line with archerers behind them, or have your cannon fodder be in front of your legendary soldiers so they can heroically take the arrows flung in their direction. It'd also be nice to tell them if and when they can break ranks.
I'd also like to be able to assign a 'second in command', so that if the unit leader decides to take a nap, the soldiers will follow the person whom is actually tying to make their way to their station. Or just not have a unit leader at all, and have the soldiers do their own thing.
Adding the ability to create patrols would also be nice. Pretty much, you'd select an area, and then select another area, and the unit would patrol between the two points. Not really critical, but could be useful if you want to patrol that lonesome road to stop having traders get mauled by unicorns.
Another thing that I think would be super-helpful is an 'attack this creature' action. So instead of soldiers chasing after the fleeing foes while another army is knocking on your gates, or instead of having your marksdwarves turn a single crippled goblin into a modern art piece instead of killing the legendary swordsgoblin about to upgrade your army of dabbling wrestlers into an ad-hoc shrine to Armok, they can do something useful.
Summery: Formations, Second-in-Commands, Patrols, Attack command. Phew.

-Military Buildings-
Have barracks be only for units to sleep in, and be able to assign barracks to a unit.
Add a new building or zone for unit training. And have the ability to Order units not to spar with metal weapons. Or just not spar at all. Add an ability for units to be training by smacking around training dummies (strength), running laps (agility), or preforming drills(toughness) instead. It should be slower than sparing, but should be much much less messy.
Summery: Stop dwarves from killing each other in their own beds.
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JujuBubu

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2008, 02:16:09 am »

First off, one booming "HELL YEAH !" for Tiler.

Second :) patrol is allready implemented, hit x to enter the squad menu and p to set a patrol point,
if you set more then one, you see blue lines connecting them .. the sqad will now walk along this lines
( if on duty, not sleeping or otherwise distracted. )

Third. Another "HELL YEAH !"
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Tiler

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 02:29:52 am »

You know, I thought patrols were implemented, but then I thought 'well, if they were there, then I would have obviously, being so clever, have figured that out and used them by now'.

Doip.
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Neonivek

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 02:34:52 am »

For the most part I agree with most of what you wrote... it is excellently written and thought out.

-Disagree: Crossbows shouldn't use an attribute to do more damage, they don't need to and it also makes little sense especially if your going to keep their supreme damage

So let me look at your military... Suggested solutions to problems, didn't suggest they never take breaks, didn't suggest a new noble... Is this the best suggestion list ever?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 02:38:04 am by Neonivek »
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Awayfarer

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 08:16:31 am »

RE: The time scale

This really needs to remain abstracted. Picture the following scenario. Urist McGee, Brewer, has 50 steps from his bedroom to the still. If he sleeps twice a season he makes two rounds trips of 100 steps each for a grand total of 200 steps. If he sleeps six times then thats 600 steps and so forth. Increasing the number of times a dwarf needs to eat/sleep/drink decreases their efficiency by loads. This would especially be true if years were made shorter.
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Tiler

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 11:52:31 am »

Yeah, I know that the abstraction is necessary, but it still bugs me.

It's really not much of a suggestion, more like a 'this frightens and confuses me, how about that.'
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Caledonian

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 01:30:08 pm »

I don't mind dwarves' weird sleeping and eating patterns, although I recognize that they're quite peculiar.  I just accept that it's a consequence of abstraction.  (Although I do think it should take more food to keep a person fed - it's far too easy to grow and eat crops.)

I just wish there were a way to wake up dwarves in emergencies.  Possibly giving them an unhappy thought and reducing their effectiveness.  Traders and liasons will wait for a dwarf to finish sleeping - attacking enemies do not.  A soldier that is awake and alert for months is useless if he's sleeping during the one time he's needed.
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Skizelo

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Re: Various suggestions of varrying pointlessness.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 02:24:48 pm »

I have to agree with whoever is that time (and space) will have to remain abstracted and that crossbows don't need any boost from agility. But the rest of your solutions are good. I agree that a shirt worn by a goblin who lost both his arms and then the rest of his torso should get more than a few new inventory items.
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