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[Raven]

To all the people saying it's a simple change in the raws to reverse this:

It's important to recognize that this change affects the intended experience of the game. It is important to consider how the intended experience is affected (like how there's a separation between normal and hard difficulties, etc.), regardless of if one can make changes to the raws to make the game easier or harder. Basically, I want to consider the design implications of this change and how it is or isn't supported by the rest of the game mechanics and dynamics.

plus there is no real reason why this changed was made in the first place

[Erk]

I don't think it's too bad but I agree a teenager status would be a nice addition so my 15 year old dwarves could do some more advanced chores and didn't spend as much time playing with toys (and also a toddler status that made them not do chores at all would be nice, though a two year old lugging boulders through my fort is pretty hilarious). I suspect the change is making way for an eventual apprenticeship system that would apply to all child dwarves though so I'm pretty patient with it.

Also, I suspect it has nothing to do with the human 'age of majority' in modern cultures and much more to do with dwarves having a lifespan of 150+ years, so having a longer childhood.

[jipehog]

It's to prevent the inevitable haters, in my opinion, and to prevent liability, got nothing to do with gameplay. But hey, easily repairable, so easily ignored.

Not a fan of this --lets appease the haters and everyone else can just go edit raws themselves-- sort of reasoning.

I suspect the change is making way for an eventual apprenticeship system that would apply to all child dwarves though so I'm pretty patient with it.

Also, I suspect it has nothing to do with the human 'age of majority' in modern cultures and much more to do with dwarves having a lifespan of 150+ years, so having a longer childhood.

Could be, but this was applied to regular lifespan humans as well, and unless apprenticeship system is around the corner this change coming along with accessibility release is suspect and an unwelcome change.   

[ash12181987]

I don't think I'm all that bothered by it. The fort I'm in now, because dwarves are of all ages coming in, I have a couple reach adulthood every year now. And I think my rate of growth is greater than my rate of death so far. So even at 18 to adult, the situation is sustainable.

You can still train the kids, by getting them near guilds. That experience rubs off. Because I have demonstrations at my guilds, where if kids participate they get dabbling ranks in those things. I don't know if it works for military abilities, I was going to try this later. So you can at least have the kid enter adulthood with some useable experience.

If you implemented some step between full adult and child for 'teenager' you'd need some reason for it.

1.) Baby: Gets carried around, falls down wells
2.) Child: Hauls goods, can play with toys, can gain experience watching demonstrations
3.) Teenager: Apprenticed? Can then do a limited amount of labor?
4.) Adult: normal Dwarf

That's where my thinking goes at least.

[Mungrul]

I wouldn't mind it, if it weren't for the fact that the leading cause of death in my 16 year old fortress has been tantrumming children, that currently face no consequences for their actions under Dwarven Justice.

I'm not kidding; one 17-year-old has 20+ kills. As soon as she ages up, she's going straight into the military.

If you're going to keep them as children for so long, make them a lot less lethal and susceptible to imprisonment, beatings and hammerings.
Yes, I am advocating that dwarven children should be given a good beating if they kill my legendary miner/weaponsmith/soapmaker.

Migrants still arrive "despite the danger", and that danger isn't goblins or the forces of darkness; it's adolescents running a(r)mok.


In one of the 40 releases, I made a device that would drown newborn babies in an effort to claw back some frames. Frames are thankfully more abundant in this version on my current PC, but I have seriously considered re-implementing the device for the safety of my citizens.

[Magnus]

Interestingly, according to the data file most standard species still seem to grow to their adult size at 12 years, regardless of their "CHILD" age. This is probably why we're seeing reports of tantruming children punching out trolls - anyone above 12 is an adult dwarf as far as the combat engine cares.

That is a bit too silly for me, so I made a compromise and set the CHILD age down to 15. Being married with two kids and a lover at age 15 is a bit much, though historically it's been known to happen. But 15-year olds playing with toys is also unusual, though again not unheard of.

[ash12181987]

I wouldn't mind it, if it weren't for the fact that the leading cause of death in my 16 year old fortress has been tantrumming children, that currently face no consequences for their actions under Dwarven Justice.

I'm not kidding; one 17-year-old has 20+ kills. As soon as she ages up, she's going straight into the military.

If you're going to keep them as children for so long, make them a lot less lethal and susceptible to imprisonment, beatings and hammerings.
Yes, I am advocating that dwarven children should be given a good beating if they kill my legendary miner/weaponsmith/soapmaker.

Migrants still arrive "despite the danger", and that danger isn't goblins or the forces of darkness; it's adolescents running a(r)mok.


In one of the 40 releases, I made a device that would drown newborn babies in an effort to claw back some frames. Frames are thankfully more abundant in this version on my current PC, but I have seriously considered re-implementing the device for the safety of my citizens.

Yo, not as Much this?
But I have a 1 year old that beat up a giant black bear.
Because the giant black bear committed the cardinal sin
It let itself be attacked by her dog, and then took a swipe at the dog.

So she punched it. With her 1 year old baby fist. And it Ran. Far away.

No joke, I've been following this girl's family for 10 years IG now (Her mother became my baroness), and the millisecond I'm able, she's going into our premier axe dwarf unit. I feel 'Bearslayer' is destined for great things.

[satan]

I think it's funny that dwarves can't get married before they reach 18 but dwarven newborns can be lustful.

[Kuria]

I had some minor frustrations about this change, but having read this thread I think it's just right. I actually love having kids doing chores, and playing more of an active role in the fort.

Now that I think about it, dwarves have such long lives, they might be considered "kids" until they're 30 or 40. I mean, that's a LOT more "realistic" than a 12 year old adult, in the context of the game. An apprentice system, related to guilds maybe, would be a fascinating dynamic, I hope they're considering something like this for the future!

[Shonai_Dweller]

I had some minor frustrations about this change, but having read this thread I think it's just right. I actually love having kids doing chores, and playing more of an active role in the fort.

Now that I think about it, dwarves have such long lives, they might be considered "kids" until they're 30 or 40. I mean, that's a LOT more "realistic" than a 12 year old adult, in the context of the game. An apprentice system, related to guilds maybe, would be a fascinating dynamic, I hope they're considering something like this for the future!

Yeah. It could be.
Worth noting (and just as a reference point, I prefer something more dynamic too) that D&D Dwarves are said to mature at the same rate as humans. Then they just live longer.

[Cathar]

I think that not being able to put them into squads or assign them meaningful work outweighs their utility as dedicated haulers/planters. I also don't think I've had a fort last 18 years more than once. I'm not a huge fan of this change to be honest.

We need to make money now, we can't have a different world with foreign sensibilities anymore, developped in and adapted from a world where life is cruel painful and short. If we don't catter to the extremely specific wants and needs of a millenial american audience, kitfox is going to stare us down and we can't have that.

It's not selling out, it is accepting the reality of the world of today.

Boy I can't wait for the hardcoded easy mode and the option to disable dismembrements.

[Prozorovsky]

I didn't even notice this in hours of playing. Though... there was a lot of kids immigrating. For me anyway the chores kids do are a frequent bottle neck so having them around has been handy. Nice seeing my fort with the next gen running about and playing imagination. Wish they got up to some mischief!

With that said it I can see this as being a minus. I haven't played a fort long enough yet for it to impact me but tacking another four long years onto getting full use out of your dwarfs is rough.

Concur with others theorizing this has to little to do with gameplay and more with politics and whatnot. It be how it be, Toady isn't on his own now. There's a publisher involved, a retailer and even another team member now. The times be changing in a big way for DF.

EDIT: That said it could be part of a larger incoming rework of kids too that just isn't fully implemented yet or some combination of both.

[Kat]

reading this thread, and people's accounts of tantruming children, and waves of children creating cheap wooden artifacts, has kind of killed my interest in playing the newest version tbh.

hopefully some clarification, and or further changes to life stages, will be forthcoming soon.

[Pillbo]

It makes more sense for long lived creatures to age slower, not quicker. Hobbits in LOTR weren't adults until 33 if I remember right... But also it's less useful as a player for a fort to have these children mooching around for longer.

I doubt this is some change forced by kitfox or 'millennials' like some people want to believe, my guess is that Tarn wants children and families to be a more significant part of the fortress simulation. So he gave them useful things to do and kept them children longer to keep the family unit together longer. Instead of being an annoyance we ignore for 12 years he likely wants us to embrace the roleplay of having children. I'm assuming this is step 1 before apprenticeships/education etc.

All that said, I have a 4 year old hauling the shit out of my rock quarry, so at this point this I have no complaints. It's better than my useful dwarves doing the hauling.

[Shonai_Dweller]

It makes more sense for long lived creatures to age slower, not quicker. Hobbits in LOTR weren't adults until 33 if I remember right... But it's less useful for a fort to have these mooches around for longer.

A human is as long-lived as, well, an Earth human and they now become adults at 18, so that argument fails completely.