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[YashaAstora]

I am constantly beset by my dwarves' unfulfilled needs to make stuff, because I obviously do not want low-skilled dwarves taking up workshops and work orders making low-quality junk. 0.50's labor system DOES slightly ameliorate this, but I don't think it's quite there--you're still having low-skill dwarves suck up valuable workshops and making crap.

So, I think guilds should hold classes for non-members, or classroom zones should exist that are linked to a guild. During a class, a guild member teaches any random dwarves that show up a bit about their skill, giving those dwarves experience in those skills. Dwarves, when on break/not doing a job, can choose to go to a class fitting their personality--for instance, a dwarf that likes rocks may visit a stoneworking class--or just because they wanna learn something new, such as a master engraver checking out a cooking class for fun,. The desire to go to a class may even be inspired by something that happened to the dwarf--for instance, our engracer may have wanted to learn cooking because they ate an incredible meal, while their own engraving inspired another dwarf to attend an engraving class. Classrooms can also have workshops attached where dwarves can make stuff in-class which also satisfies their "practicing a craft" need and gives them something personal they can keep with sentimental value.

Classrooms could also be used to very quickly train a set of dwarves in a skill much faster than just letting them do the job in question--dwarves could be assigned to a classroom and teacher, where they learn the skill without taking up your normal set of workshops (yes I know you could make a buncha new workshops somewhere else and assign them to the workshop, but I think this whole suggested setup is a lot more sensible and charming than just doing that. Plus, if you NEED a completely utilitarian justification, you wouldn't have to micromanage workshop assignments, burrows, and other related crap if you can simply assign a classroom and have dwarves come and go as they please or when you command them to). And, of course, children could be assigned to classes--perhaps even implementing an entire education system, where once your fort is large enough an entire public schooling system can be implemented. Nearby hillocks and other sites could also send their kids to your schools as visitors, which could help your civilization maintain a large pool of highly skilled workers (presumably this would also work hand-in-hand with other features that encourage caring about your civ besides trading caravans).

[Shonai_Dweller]

They do this already.
This is pretty much all guilds do right now (besides challenging you to build them on time).

[YashaAstora]

They do this already.
This is pretty much all guilds do right now (besides challenging you to build them on time).

They hold them for their members. I have several guilds in my fort and not a single one has taught a lesson to anyone but their own members. Thank you for revealing that you did not actually read my opening post, though.

[Thorfinn]

I am constantly beset by my dwarves' unfulfilled needs to make stuff, because I obviously do not want low-skilled dwarves taking up workshops and work orders making low-quality junk. 0.50's labor system DOES slightly ameliorate this, but I don't think it's quite there--you're still having low-skill dwarves suck up valuable workshops and making crap.

So build more workshops and queue up some crap?

There's no reason a dwarf's room has to be spartan. My peons usually get a 3x4 room, so there's lots of room to install crap, especially nice if you can fill some preferences. Glass jewel encrust everything.

What else can you do with all those rocks? Oh, I know. Nest boxes, then breed a few dozen turkeys so your aspiring chef has eggs to play with. Keep those separate from your master chef stuff if you want the good meal thoughts.

Gatherers should never have to walk more than a few steps to find a ladder. Reduces the number that get stuck in trees. Bonus!

Fill every alcove in your fort with quality statues or furniture or whatever.

If you grow to the point that not even the traders can haul it all away, there's always QSPs or, worst case, magma or atom smashers.

There's no downside I know of to dwarves being Legendary everything, if they want to take the jobs.

[YashaAstora]

I am constantly beset by my dwarves' unfulfilled needs to make stuff, because I obviously do not want low-skilled dwarves taking up workshops and work orders making low-quality junk. 0.50's labor system DOES slightly ameliorate this, but I don't think it's quite there--you're still having low-skill dwarves suck up valuable workshops and making crap.

So build more workshops and queue up some crap?

There's no reason a dwarf's room has to be spartan. My peons usually get a 3x4 room, so there's lots of room to install crap, especially nice if you can fill some preferences. Glass jewel encrust everything.

What else can you do with all those rocks? Oh, I know. Nest boxes, then breed a few dozen turkeys so your aspiring chef has eggs to play with. Keep those separate from your master chef stuff if you want the good meal thoughts.

Gatherers should never have to walk more than a few steps to find a ladder. Reduces the number that get stuck in trees. Bonus!

Fill every alcove in your fort with quality statues or furniture or whatever.

If you grow to the point that not even the traders can haul it all away, there's always QSPs or, worst case, magma or atom smashers.

There's no downside I know of to dwarves being Legendary everything, if they want to take the jobs.

I know you can do this. I just think it's not as engaging as the idea of guilds being able to give classes. Having a bunch of random workshops you micromanage so random dwarves can make stuff to satisfy their needs (a thing that requires tediously micromanaging their labors and assignments) is far less of an appealing idea than what I'm suggesting. There are plenty of mechanics in the game you can deal with tortured nitpicking--that doesn't mean more flavorful and engaging replacements shouldn't be added. Education is a thing that existed in real life and DF is trying to be remarkably realistic, hence its immense amount of different stones, or workshops (soap making takes four workshops, one of which is literally ONLY for making soap!), or jobs.

[Tamren]

One problem with classrooms is that you could potentially cross-pollinate your entire fortress with the same skill, which would result in a lot of strange moods for redundant or unwanted skills. Guild demonstrations avoid this problem because they only affect members who already have enough of a skill to be considered to have a profession.

I do agree that the "need to craft" should be less micromanagey. Maybe in cases where jobs are queued for unrestricted workshops like a loom or tannery, dwarves with the need to craft should pick up a task before other dwarves and that demand would naturally take care of itself as your fort works and produces stuff.

[Thorfinn]

OK. Wasn't trying to rile you up. It sounds like what guilds should be used for, yes. I'm guessing it's probably just unfinished.

I don't do Steam, so I had no idea. I'll be happy to buy it on GOG. Until then, it's just sporadic donations. I take it you can no longer assign dwarves to specific workshops? A master workshop and however many novice workshops it takes to keep them happy?

[brewer bob]

They do this already.
This is pretty much all guilds do right now (besides challenging you to build them on time).

They hold them for their members. I have several guilds in my fort and not a single one has taught a lesson to anyone but their own members. Thank you for revealing that you did not actually read my opening post, though.

That's what guilds did historically. Their services were (generally) not open for non-members and one of the functions was to limit who can practice a craft/sell crafts, etc.

But in DF you can for certain change guild zones to allow non-members from the location screen (in 0.47, don't know about Steam version), if you want to do so, and non-members will go there and get their skills trained (as long as someone is demonstrating a skill there).

[YashaAstora]

One problem with classrooms is that you could potentially cross-pollinate your entire fortress with the same skill, which would result in a lot of strange moods for redundant or unwanted skills. Guild demonstrations avoid this problem because they only affect members who already have enough of a skill to be considered to have a profession.

I do agree that the "need to craft" should be less micromanagey. Maybe in cases where jobs are queued for unrestricted workshops like a loom or tannery, dwarves with the need to craft should pick up a task before other dwarves and that demand would naturally take care of itself as your fort works and produces stuff.

I think Toady wants to remove the strange mood system for something more nuanced anyway. Also, in my experience, the chance of actually getting an artifact useful for anything but trading is so low (even if you derangedly corral the dwarf) that I don't really mind.

They hold them for their members. I have several guilds in my fort and not a single one has taught a lesson to anyone but their own members. Thank you for revealing that you did not actually read my opening post, though.

That's what guilds did historically. Their services were (generally) not open for non-members and one of the functions was to limit who can practice a craft/sell crafts, etc.

But in DF you can for certain change guild zones to allow non-members from the location screen (in 0.47, don't know about Steam version), if you want to do so, and non-members will go there and get their skills trained (as long as someone is demonstrating a skill there).

Really? I didn't know that. I should go change my guilds then...

As for the other thing, hm, that is true, though stereotypical fantasy guilds tend to be a little less strict in my experience. In a lot of fantasy guilds are practically a weird proto-trade school.

[brewer bob]

But in DF you can for certain change guild zones to allow non-members from the location screen (in 0.47, don't know about Steam version), if you want to do so, and non-members will go there and get their skills trained (as long as someone is demonstrating a skill there).

Really? I didn't know that. I should go change my guilds then...

Just a fair warning, these sometimes train citizens ridiculously fast. (I stopped doing it since it felt like such an exploit. Though, I did get some weird satisfaction in one fort with all citizens being high master/legendary fisherdwarves due to guilds.)

As for the other thing, hm, that is true, though stereotypical fantasy guilds tend to be a little less strict in my experience. In a lot of fantasy guilds are practically a weird proto-trade school.

Generic fantasy is often, well, let's not get into that...

[YashaAstora]

But in DF you can for certain change guild zones to allow non-members from the location screen (in 0.47, don't know about Steam version), if you want to do so, and non-members will go there and get their skills trained (as long as someone is demonstrating a skill there).

Really? I didn't know that. I should go change my guilds then...

Just a fair warning, these sometimes train citizens ridiculously fast. (I stopped doing it since it felt like such an exploit. Though, I did get some weird satisfaction in one fort with all citizens being high master/legendary fisherdwarves due to guilds.)

As for the other thing, hm, that is true, though stereotypical fantasy guilds tend to be a little less strict in my experience. In a lot of fantasy guilds are practically a weird proto-trade school.

Generic fantasy is often, well, let's not get into that...

I mean, DF isn't generic by any means, but it does crib from fantasy tropes respectably!

[Shonai_Dweller]

They do this already.
This is pretty much all guilds do right now (besides challenging you to build them on time).

They hold them for their members. I have several guilds in my fort and not a single one has taught a lesson to anyone but their own members. Thank you for revealing that you did not actually read my opening post, though.

Did you set them to allow anyone? The default is members only.
They absolutely train children in there. I've used guilds for years.

I read your post. Seems exactly the same as all other suggestion threads on education, schooling, universities and apprenticeships. So simply pointed out where you may have missed something.

[IronGremlin]

To be fair the guild system could definitely be improved a bit - right now I'm suffering through a world that I accidentally overpopulated with stone workers and I can't get any other guilds to form except the planters guild.


I tried with a new fort and set up an armorer's guild first thing but I keep getting immigrants from my old for and everyone is like proficient stonecarver or greater, so it's taking forever to get the guild going because I've got to feed them enough armor jobs to train up like 5 armorers past their stonecarving skill.


EG, it'd be really nice if you could just tell someone: "you are now the armorer instructor, give classes at the guild, thanks" instead of needing to try to power level 8+ dwarves to get the guild founded.

(I know you can build the hall. They won't give classes until a guild is founded).