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Author Topic: Pressure and Multi Z level features  (Read 2452 times)

DoubleG

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Pressure and Multi Z level features
« on: May 05, 2021, 06:46:40 am »

My new fortress is going well, apart from a few loyalty cascades. Planning on plumbing in my water. AS I'm going to be expanding to obsidian casting and may have some water traps on the surface, plus will need to irrigate my tree farm periodically, I was going to do one massive column of water running over many z levels, with gates with pressure cancelling diagonals at various levels. Can anyone foresee any problems with this setup? Planning multi Z level features is always difficult, and even harder to change once started, so want to plan thoroughly this time. Any advice on this pressure issue would be appreciated

I am deep in the planning stages for my fort's final megaproject. I'm planning a MULTI Z LEVEL power system, so I can get power wherever I need it. (Need to look more into that and exactly where i need power as well). But what features dfo you think should be incorporated into your forts planning from the outset. Mainly I'm thinking of the inter Z level ones, as they need to be placed carefully.

TL DR: How much water pressure is MAX water pressure? Also, what multi Z level features do you think are cool and plan for?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2021, 07:34:49 am »

Tree farms need irrigation initially and when enough rock has been exposed under the trunks of felled trees that the farm gets short of free mud. That probably happens well after you've secured all caverns and swear over the inability to either deal with all the logs or deal with all the cavern trees blocking off access to caverns. Eventually caverns do run out of soil, so I guess you need to muddy them once every few hundred years or so if you actually want more shroom logs (the surface doesn't run out of soil...).

The only cases where I use pressure cancelling diagonals is when I'm trying to restrict either the rate of flow or keep the level of a continually filled body of water steady. For things such as obsidian farming I just make sure I have a drawbridge at the farm outlet and let the pressurized water out that way. I often have another drawbridge high up in the system so I can cut off the source, drain the water (somewhere), and then build extensions. However, I usually build extensions after the previous set of drawbridge "valves" so I don't have to drain any water.

You can't really plan Z level feature initially, as their placement will depend on where you can bypass caverns, so you need to explore that first and then formulate a plan when you know the relevant layout (and include additional exploration as needed to reveal the layout in areas you may want your features to pass through).
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DoubleG

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2021, 09:16:34 am »

I think pressure cancelling is important in this case as I have over 25 Z levels planned out for the water tower. Think even a small time with the filler bridge open and it would flood everything and be very !fun!. :P

Thank you for the response. My world gen always makes sure I have a few extra layers to play with for base building, so I've got plenty of room. Got all the caverns mapped out, I have the one central staircase going from surface to the bottom, if I needed. I was lucky that my initial explorer soldier dwarves found downward passages down to the 2nd and 3rd cavern, so I was able to plan almost everything straight away. Which has been partly a blessing and a curse, I've barely unpaused it at all and am still procrastinating about what bits go where.
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Bortness

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2021, 11:02:38 am »

Here's a rundown of how I typically lay out my fortresses:

Strike the Earth and channel down at least three Z levels, via a three-tile-wide slope which allows trading caravans access to the main entry hallway.  Three levels down clears you of all common surface water issues, you'll never hit "damp stone" digging if you're that far below the ponds and rivers.  Farms usually go one Z level above the main entry (2 down from the surface), and they need to be dug carefully to avoid damp stone underneath the surface water.  The entry hallway has space for a trade depot branching off to the side, and further down the hall we get to the main fortress staircase.  Entry-Z-level stuff includes the main stockpile and main early-game workshops.  the staircase goes down into the depths from here (and perhaps 1 Z level up for farm access).

The above gives you a long, wagon-accessible main entry hallway which can be secured via bridges if that's your desire, it protects trading caravans from surface threats, and allows you to control the flow of your visitors and traders to allow for both accessibility and security.

From there I dig down until I hit the caverns.  Sometimes it's 60 Z levels or more away, but I keep digging down until I determine where, at the very least, the first cavern layer is.  This gives you the data you need to set up the multi-Z-level features you're talking about.  Sometimes cavern 1 is close to the surface and you need to keep digging down until you hit caverns 2 and 3, just to find space for those larger features.

Once you've got the Z-level data, understanding where things are clear and where they're occluded by caverns / magma / etc, you can plan out everything else accordingly.

Typically I will divide my waterworks into low-pressure circuits and high-pressure circuits.  The low-pressure stuff will be the tavern waterfall, any drinking water supply, the hospital water supply, etc.  The high-pressure stuff is typically used for fluid logic (high pressure makes the logic operate more quickly).  Sometimes I use the high-pressure circuit to deliver water for low-pressure uses, but in that case care needs to be taken to include, as you reference, diagonals for pressure control.

Any major water use area typically has one "empty" layer above and one below it, which I then use for supply plumbing and drains respectively.

The source is usually a surface river, which I tap into an underground channel system.  I always put a lever-controller bridge at the very top, which is my master shutoff valve.  This typically splits into the low-pressure circuits which are directly fed by the river, and a drop to a very large multi-Z-level reservoir (the "high pressure reservoir"), which then feeds a small dug-out "high pressure junction" which has individual feeds for all the various high-pressure delivery needs.  I always dig out more unconnected feeds than I need, so I can add destinations to the high-pressure circuit easily without needing to drain the entire reservoir.

The drains are typically located at the very bottom of the fort - not always, but most of the time.  All the various individual drain locations merge into one large drain reservoir at the bottom, which frequently drains off into the third cavern layer off-map, or if I'm feeling really adventurous I'll try to get it to drain into the HFS.  For security, I'll often set up an automated fluid-logic-based auto-drain, which automatically opens a lower bridge when the reservoir hits a certain level, draining the whole thing in one wild high-pressure blast, subsequently closing the lower bridge until the next time the reservoir fills.  This is fairly easily accomplished via water-sensitive pressure plates and a little fluid logic.

If you're making something large or complicated it really helps to keep a written reference to the fort's Z levels.  My most recent still-ongoing megaproject fort is actively using nearly 100 Z levels for various purposes, all carefully positioned as there are a lot of moving parts to keep connected and choreographed.  The most important thing is really to locate the cavern layers, as they will determine a lot just by their positions, and then place the large things first, trying to leave yourself room to fill the smaller stuff in around them.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 12:39:29 pm »

The flow due to pressure reaches a maximum level after a while, so even when obsidianizing a magma pipe you'll have to either move your outlet as you go from an edge inwards, or build walls on the newly formed obsidian to funnel the water to where the unobsidianized magma is.
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DoubleG

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 01:44:24 pm »

Bortness: Fluid logic sound interesting. What would that involve? At the moment I'm planning a 30 Z level reservoir, with feeders running off (pressure cancelled) to fill my upper and lower reservoirs, irrigate fields and wood production if needed and run my obsidian farm, along with a plans for some dwarfy drowning traps. How would I want to put in some outlets to feed a fluid logic system? What could that system do>

I've got a pin board I use to sort out my fort. It's got all the dwarf industries and major features I want to put in. It's connected by lots and lots of red string. It's starting to look a little complicated. :P

PAtrikLundell: I'm, using the watrer for an obsidian farm, not casting the entire fort. I have done casting before, for obsidian casting it helps if you build a mould first, cast each level as it goes.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2021, 06:28:48 pm »

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Mohreb el Yasim

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 01:08:22 am »

You can't really plan Z level feature initially, as their placement will depend on where you can bypass caverns, so you need to explore that first and then formulate a plan when you know the relevant layout (and include additional exploration as needed to reveal the layout in areas you may want your features to pass through).
Technically you can, reveal / unreveal with dfhack does the job. (of cource it is a bit cheaty but if it helps my 'ocd' it can help yours too)
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Mohreb el Yasim


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PatrikLundell

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 02:04:41 am »

You can't really plan Z level feature initially, as their placement will depend on where you can bypass caverns, so you need to explore that first and then formulate a plan when you know the relevant layout (and include additional exploration as needed to reveal the layout in areas you may want your features to pass through).
Technically you can, reveal / unreveal with dfhack does the job. (of cource it is a bit cheaty but if it helps my 'ocd' it can help yours too)
You're correct. I don't use reveal in game play (only research/bug investigations), so it's not on my game play mind. However, it's a tool in the DFHack toolbox, and there's no real cheating in single player games: the limit should be to restrict the usage of such tools to a level that doesn't cheat yourself out of enjoyment.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2021, 06:01:51 am »

You can't really plan Z level feature initially, as their placement will depend on where you can bypass caverns, so you need to explore that first and then formulate a plan when you know the relevant layout (and include additional exploration as needed to reveal the layout in areas you may want your features to pass through).
Technically you can, reveal / unreveal with dfhack does the job. (of cource it is a bit cheaty but if it helps my 'ocd' it can help yours too)
Alternatively, with a large number of constructions you can force your way through unaccomodating caverns should they clash with your architectural visions

PatrikLundell

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2021, 07:28:54 am »

@Load Whispers: True, with the limitation that you can't (yet?) engrave constructed walls and floors (but you can cast obsidian). That's quite some additional work, anyway.
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hanni79

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2021, 10:59:47 am »

Also, what multi Z level features do you think are cool and plan for?

The first and last thing to consider when working with fluids is:

"Where do I drain to when I inevitably f..k up" ?

If you made a mistake, you can easily change stuff as long as you added a well placed drain :)
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Salmeuk

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Re: Pressure and Multi Z level features
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2021, 06:31:52 pm »

My new fortress is going well, apart from a few loyalty cascades. Planning on plumbing in my water. AS I'm going to be expanding to obsidian casting and may have some water traps on the surface, plus will need to irrigate my tree farm periodically, I was going to do one massive column of water running over many z levels, with gates with pressure cancelling diagonals at various levels. Can anyone foresee any problems with this setup? Planning multi Z level features is always difficult, and even harder to change once started, so want to plan thoroughly this time. Any advice on this pressure issue would be appreciated

I am deep in the planning stages for my fort's final megaproject. I'm planning a MULTI Z LEVEL power system, so I can get power wherever I need it. (Need to look more into that and exactly where i need power as well). But what features dfo you think should be incorporated into your forts planning from the outset. Mainly I'm thinking of the inter Z level ones, as they need to be placed carefully.

TL DR: How much water pressure is MAX water pressure? Also, what multi Z level features do you think are cool and plan for?

re: vertical power transmission is ez where you dig a vertical tube and stack vertical axles to the height you need. Keep in mind power is lost over distance (right? I honestly might be misremembering this) and you will need to generate excess to account for this loss.

I don't see reveal / unreveal as particularly cheaty, since I imagine dwarves would have some kind of geological sounding rod that might detect cavern chambers through the stone. . . and what dwarf wouldn't plan ahead?

I tend to sink 2x2 staircases straight to magma. Whenever the staircase encounters a cavern, I simply build constructed staircases straight down and then build walls from the bottom up. Fairly easy designation pattern with no deconstruction needed, though you must return frequently to lay down the next set of walls. This seals in the staircase and I can forget about the caverns until I need silk, wood, plants, or friends.
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