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Author Topic: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)  (Read 4825 times)

SakuraHeinz

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I read on the dwarf fortress wiki that Whips have or had a bug that whips cut trough steel armor like clothing, is this still true or got that fixed? This bug is arround since 2014 according to dwarf fortress wiki.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 10:48:25 am by SakuraHeinz »
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2020, 10:40:45 am »

They do?  It’s good to know that at least someone knows the answer to that question.

It’d be better if you told us who that someone was, so we could watch for their reply in this thread.
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SakuraHeinz

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2020, 10:50:20 am »

@A_Curious_Cat so you know if its already fixed?
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2020, 03:05:37 pm »

I tried platinum whip (outsider) versus elf ghoul. Long battle, no result. Then I use just copper sword. Ghoul was killed very fast.
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Bumber

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2020, 01:32:20 am »

I tried platinum whip (outsider) versus elf ghoul. Long battle, no result. Then I use just copper sword. Ghoul was killed very fast.

Was the ghoul wearing armor?
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Cathar

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2020, 03:11:24 am »

Whips were nerfed a long time ago. Swinging them now takes a lot of time. There is however no reason they would function differently when it comes to armor piercing, since they still have a very low contact area and mass is material dependent. Same as pikes. You don't want to take a hit of those in the head, they will mes you up very bad. But they are not OP by any means.

After testing on object arena, I can confirm it rips armors to shreds very, very quickly. Damage on flesh is not that good tho.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 03:22:17 am by Cathar »
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2020, 04:01:12 am »

Whips were nerfed a long time ago. Swinging them now takes a lot of time. There is however no reason they would function differently when it comes to armor piercing, since they still have a very low contact area and mass is material dependent. Same as pikes. You don't want to take a hit of those in the head, they will mes you up very bad. But they are not OP by any means.

After testing on object arena, I can confirm it rips armors to shreds very, very quickly. Damage on flesh is not that good tho.

How (and with what) would you suggest fighting a bronze colossus?  I’m asking because, on one of my previous adventures, I was tasked with taking one down (this was only my second quest -the first one involved a dragon that turned out to be extremely easy to kill).  After reaching the colossus’s shrine, I engaged the colossus which proceeded to wipe the floor with the other members of my party (only the legendary dodging skills I had gained as a disciple of Master Limulus saved me from the same grisly fate).  Anyways, I hacked at it with my long sword, gaining serious skill points but still unable to make a dent in it.  Eventually, I lured it to a stream where I intended to take advantage of it’s weakness to water.  At this point it began to flee from me and fled upstream, eventually managing to dive below a brook.  I gave chase...

And I drowned.

Any tips on what to do if I ever get in such a situation again would be much appreciated.
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Cathar

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2020, 04:34:51 am »

Bronze collossi are pretty much endgame bosses. Clearly you need at least something like a silver hammer (or silver blunt weapon in general) to make chip damages to it, or something harder than bronze. Steel, adamantium or angel metal edged weapons should be able to lop off his limbs. Attacking his legs should as usual be a good way to limit the number of attacks you'll receive, hence improving your survavibility
Either way you're up for a tense fight. Bronze collossi do not tire and do not feel pain and are one of the most enduring enemies in the game safe some very lucky FB and hidden fun stuff.

I would not attack a bronze collossus in adventure mode, pretty much ever

A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2020, 04:45:07 am »

Bronze collossi are pretty much endgame bosses. Clearly you need at least something like a silver hammer (or silver blunt weapon in general) to make chip damages to it, or something harder than bronze. Steel, adamantium or angel metal edged weapons should be able to lop off his limbs. Attacking his legs should as usual be a good way to limit the number of attacks you'll receive, hence improving your survavibility
Either way you're up for a tense fight. Bronze collossi do not tire and do not feel pain and are one of the most enduring enemies in the game safe some very lucky FB and hidden fun stuff.

I would not attack a bronze collossus in adventure mode, pretty much ever

1.  Why was I given a task to kill a bronze colossus as only my second quest.

2.  How do I tell my lord that he can take his “quest” and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine (really, your adventurer’s lord won’t give them a new quest until after they have completed the previous one).
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Cathar

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2020, 04:53:50 am »

It's a bit of a tengent, but what the game doesn't tell you is, you are not forced, nor even encouraged, to take any quest at all. Some quest are absurdly dangerous, other are mean and petty (I had some lord ask me to start a war because I think he disagreed with the elves on a topic or another). Quests may not be feasible at all, because the monster has been slain already or died of old age and the quest giver is simply not aware.

In general quests do not scale with your progression at all, they are world and NPC dependant. It's quite normal from the game's perspective but quite different to what we're conditionned to think as rpg players. The game does not think of the adventurer as anyone special, you're asked to kill a bronze collossus because that peculiar npc is afraid (for good reasons probably) of that peculiar monster.

Tho I don't think you can refuse a quest from your superior. But it's okay, there are other issues to solve, the world is your oister

SakuraHeinz

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2020, 05:47:07 am »

Whips were nerfed a long time ago. Swinging them now takes a lot of time. There is however no reason they would function differently when it comes to armor piercing, since they still have a very low contact area and mass is material dependent. Same as pikes. You don't want to take a hit of those in the head, they will mes you up very bad. But they are not OP by any means.

After testing on object arena, I can confirm it rips armors to shreds very, very quickly. Damage on flesh is not that good tho.

Thank you very much Cathar, I didnt want to accidently exploit the game playing with a whip, and thanks for the additional info what made it so OP <3
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Quantum Drop

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventure mode? (Armor Penetration)
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2020, 05:53:43 pm »

How (and with what) would you suggest fighting a bronze colossus?  I’m asking because, on one of my previous adventures, I was tasked with taking one down (this was only my second quest -the first one involved a dragon that turned out to be extremely easy to kill).  After reaching the colossus’s shrine, I engaged the colossus which proceeded to wipe the floor with the other members of my party (only the legendary dodging skills I had gained as a disciple of Master Limulus saved me from the same grisly fate).  Anyways, I hacked at it with my long sword, gaining serious skill points but still unable to make a dent in it.  Eventually, I lured it to a stream where I intended to take advantage of it’s weakness to water.  At this point it began to flee from me and fled upstream, eventually managing to dive below a brook.  I gave chase...

And I drowned.

Any tips on what to do if I ever get in such a situation again would be much appreciated.
A little late, but might as well add my suggestions:

First off, make sure you have Axeman, Dodge, Shield User, Fighter, and Ambusher at Legendary via macro-training and sneaking whenever possible; you may also want to level Thrower/Archer to roughly that point as well. Second, make sure you have a Battle Axe that's at least bronze (iron's better, and pretty easy to find if you're willing to hack your way through a Goblin camp or steal from a Dwarven fortress; steel's pretty difficult to find, and HFS metals need a fortress or super-good skills, attributes, and gear already) as well as several shields of whatever material, and maybe a few iron or better bolts/arrows. Considering how long these fights can drag on for, you may also want to pay an uninhabited Tower a visit for Necromancy (Unless you're an Experiment) or get Vampired up for the [NOEXERT] effect (both) and the boost to physical attributes (Vampire).

Before or as you reach the shrine with the BC, equip yourself with all the shields via the 'r'-emove key, as that should give you multiple chances to auto-block a strike if dodging fails or can't be done in time. If you have any companions, you may want to repeat this step with them before or after putting them in tactical mode. If you levelled up Thrower/Archer, use sneak mode to get several tiles away from the BC, then throw the arrows at it from range - if you're lucky, it might inflict some initial chip or even fracture damage on the Colossus' arms or legs. Once you or your companions are out of sharp bits to throw (it probably won't notice you, since it can't learn any skills), continue sneaking forward and aim for the legs with an axe to cripple its speed and lower the amount of attacks it'll be able to send at you; you may want to use either heavy (bigger chance of getting pasted, bigger chance of crippling it) or quick (smaller chance of it pasting you, bigger chance of glancing away) attacks, depending on how much risk you're comfortable with.

Once the BC falls over, once again, it depends on how much risk you're comfortable with. You and/or your companions can aim at the arms to prevent it punching or grappling you if you're risk averse, or just aim for the neck/head with normal attacks immediately if you're confident in your ability to dodge and deflect. Sooner or later, it'll go down.
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peasant cretin

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2021, 05:53:34 pm »

How (and with what) would you suggest fighting a bronze colossus?  I’m asking because, on one of my previous adventures, I was tasked with taking one down (this was only my second quest -the first one involved a dragon that turned out to be extremely easy to kill).  After reaching the colossus’s shrine, I engaged the colossus which proceeded to wipe the floor with the other members of my party (only the legendary dodging skills I had gained as a disciple of Master Limulus saved me from the same grisly fate).  Anyways, I hacked at it with my long sword, gaining serious skill points but still unable to make a dent in it.  Eventually, I lured it to a stream where I intended to take advantage of it’s weakness to water.  At this point it began to flee from me and fled upstream, eventually managing to dive below a brook.  I gave chase...

And I drowned.

Any tips on what to do if I ever get in such a situation again would be much appreciated.

Since 34.11? the pretty common vanilla DF weapon suggestion that many of us have used is the steel pick. It has a decent 100 contact area and a nice 2K momentum. Or steel battle axe, which is almost as good. Presuming the dwarven civ(s) in your world have steel you could trade for one of these, rob a poor dwarf, or perhaps find one in an item stash.

A bit different than what others here have suggested: a bronze colossus has a skill level of zero (dabbling skill) and cannot learn; this means it doesn't have to be reserved for end game characters. You need to be able to successfully roll-to-dodge/block versus a level zero, so conservatively say level 6 would be good enough for your shield user and dodger.

The combat roadmap I follow for everyone save for critters with semi-nonnegotiable special attacks (web/paralyze/blind/curse) is:

1. Remove critter ability to stand. Spam lower limb damage for critters with lower limbs or to lower body for snake like critters. Removal of ability to stand = remove charge. Remove charge = remove opponent's ability to cause stun. Stun debuffs you by 50%. And as Cathar mentioned, grounding them like this drops their movement speed from the 1K walking to .323 on the ground. A thing that is still likely true is (you) the standing unit vs (them) the grounded unit = 2X momentum to your attacks. To achieve grounding, the preferred, safety first spam method for any opponent is multi-attack combo (quick attack + dodge away) to either the foot, lower leg or upper leg. You prioritize the smallest consequential body part as this reaches cumulative damage fastest. So foot > lower leg > upper leg.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2. Debuff. Spam lower body damage if critter can suffer nausea. Nausea is your 50% debuff to them.
3. Choose quickest method of causing death. For an inorganic like a bronze colossus, this is more often than not cumulative damage. Yes you can lop off its head or perhaps bisect its midsection, but this is very RNG driven.

So for fastest route to cumulative damage as mentioned, you choose the smallest consequential body part, but with the highest hit%, which for colossus is lower body. More or less, spam lower body damage. The higher your weapon skill will increase not only hit rate but damage output. And with RNG lottery kill shots, high skill increases their likelihood as well.

Though if you do get a good headshot, might as well take it. Head is smaller than lower body = ir's easier to exceed the cumulative damage threshold, but as it is a smaller body part, it will also often be harder to hit.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 06:12:09 pm by peasant cretin »
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Somebody knows if Whips are still OP in Adventuremode?(Armor Penetration)
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2021, 08:43:49 pm »


Since 34.11? the pretty common vanilla DF weapon suggestion that many of us have used is the steel pick. It has a decent 100 contact area and a nice 2K momentum. Or steel battle axe, which is almost as good. Presuming the dwarven civ(s) in your world have steel you could trade for one of these, rob a poor dwarf, or perhaps find one in an item stash.

I was playing a human hearthsperson.  I think it was the last version before the current major release.  My two biggest problems were A) how quickly it killed all of my companions, and B) that fact that my iron longsword wasn’t having any effect on it.  I rose to legendary skill in armor user, dodging, and wrestling underMaster Limulus’s tutelage.  Unfortunately, the famous and revered Master doesn’t provide any training with regards to the use of weapons and I didn’t know how to go about gaining weapon skill other than just going out and killing things (I still don’t know, for that matter) so I was forced to fight the colossus with only novice skill in swordsmanship at the start of the fight.  That said, your post seems to have some interesting ideas.  I think I’ll put them to use on my next adventure.
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LurchyMcSmokins

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A bit late, but here is some info that might be able to help you.

On training skills - Every skill is raised by using it in the games. Some skills arent able to be used in adventure mode, so can not be raised. Reading, if not taken at char creation, can never be learned organically in game. To raise any weapon skill, you need to use it. Its suggested to find a wild animal that isnt too dangerous to train on. If you can find a giant turtle, they are good for raising sword and axe skills.

Quests/Requests - The NPCs are only telling you the things that they want changed or dealt with, they arent exactly asking for you specifically to do it. If you cant manage it, or dont want to try, move on and ask other people for rumours or problems they need help with. There is nothing wrong with ignoring hard tasks or ones that you dont want to do anything with.

Monsters/Beasts - Dragons, i think Rocs and some other fantastical creatures, while deadly at any age, are much much easier if encountered before they have been alive for 100+ years, making some of them great ways to increase your fame and standing among the civs, but you have to be careful, no one tells you how old the creature is. They could have been around since the beginning of time, and are super powerful.

I havent played much lately, these are just some things ive remembered from my extensive Adventure mode playthroughs
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