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[Zonk]

a Stock races/species discussion:

Will we have some sort of help-browser to see the varius race
descriptions before choosing,right?Well that's just one of the less
important question in this post...

I was just thinking an idea to kill the time for the new demos of
Slaves to Armok:Why not talk about the attributes/powers of various
races,especially the most powerful or strange...

I think most of this races could be added as stock species without
problems(code-wise),but im not saying they are all balanced..
Well we have altready talked about playing a super-character right?
You just get a smaller score...but bigger fun(if you are like me)

Remember to post freely replies with other species.So,in the end,
we can make a BIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGG species list.

Well...so the LONG list starts:

Humanoids:

Giants:BIG Humanoids.Maybe sorted in varied sub-races,one bigger
than another..But HOW big?Do we have 9-10 feet 500 pound hill giants
and 30 feet Storm giants?Also,all giant attributes/skills/items
are derivated from their size,right?I mean they probably don't
have a strange culture,they could just be considered BIG-humans,right?
One exception could,maybe,be their skill at throwing boulders...But
thinking to it it's just like a normal human throwing a normal rock.
Then,the sub-species are,in this order of strengh(i think):

Hill Giant(10 feet)
Stone Giant(15 feet)
Frost Giant(20 feet)
Fire Giant(25 feet)
Storm Giant(30 feet)

maybe we could throw in Sea Giants(between Frost and Fire)and
Cloud Giant(between Fire and Storm).By the way,their life-span
is the same as humans except for Stone(living almost forever
but getting weaker with erosion) and Storm Giants,right?

Trolls:Now,are they 8-10 feet tall or just 3-4 feet?They surely
are strong,though.Also,what is the limit of their regenerating
power?Also..another big problem...to they just turn to stone
FOREVER at sun-light or they become of flesh another time at the dusk?
I think the second option is the best and most realistic.Or maybe
they just get some penality to all attributes in sunlight?

Orc and Ogres:They are probably related,right?They hate light but
the Ogres can live above ground without too much problems.Also,
if for now we just have Red Ogres,will we have various other
types of Ogres?Blue(Acquatic)Ogres,Green(Forest/Swamp)Ogre and
similar things...By the way,D&D Ogres have small horns,right?
For attributes,Orcs could be a cross between Human and Ogres,i think,
but only about 6 foot tall.I also heard about an Orc/Ogre cross
called "Ogrillion".

[Alanor]

I guess a creature discussion is pretty reasonable.. becuase we all have different perceptions of what creatures are, what they look like and such.

This is an interesting question becuase of the structure that ARMOK allows for to start with.

In the case of all creature that are communal, there will be entities in place which will affect hte actions of all of the members of that community.  This means, even without an extenstive AI for each creature, a community of creatures will act with focus, goals and thus meaning.  This will change things in a few ways.  What would have been seen as just some orcs traveling around for you to fight in older games will be a group of orcs with purpouse.  They are hunting, or looking for water, or somethign to that effect.  Killing all those orcs will have some effect on the community as a whole.

A friend of mine has one of hte best views of Orcs in his DnD game that i have seen.  If you look at a Tolkien perspective of orcs vs say a standard DnD version of orcs you will see a large difference.  

Orcs are intelligent, about as intelligent as humans... but whats the difference?  Well basically it comes from the fact htat hey have different kinds of social structure.  Because orcs breed more often than humans, they very quickly generate a survial of the fittest theme and that leads to major competition in orc societies... also being poweful and violent that means that lots of orcs die by the hands of orcs.  This may makes the society weak in some ways... and keeps the fact that they breed like rabits in check.  (what happends when a good-leader orc is born? utoh... thats hwen the orcs rise up and take over half the world!)
Another interesing point is the difference between orcs and Ogres, and thier brethren other goblinoids.  Due to the intelligence the Orcs dont eat the flesh of other intelligent beings.. unlike ogres, unlike goblinoids.  This makes a big difference.  They dont just want to eat you... they have much more sinister plots... hehe

In any case organization and intelligence is a big deal.  Orcs being as smart as humans makes them interesting enemies!

Thats my basic basic basic position or orcs.

As for the other things you mensioned.  I think that the different kinds of traditional giants (which all come out of different areas of mythology) have different kinds of statures and societies.  Hill giants were strong, but not very smart.  Where as Storm giants live in the clouds and have caustic and violent society.  I thinkt hat we can come up with some way of fitting them all togeather in a good way.  
One of the biggest seperators of the giants is basicaly where they live... i mean.. storms giants live on clouds.. hill giants live in caves!

On the topic of trolls..
well i have always thought there were a few different types of trolls.
There is the standard Cave troll
big, burly and strong...
these are the kind that would turn to stone in the sunlight... mean suckers but htey have a weakness.. these guys dont generally regenerate they are more like big big ogres

The second type is the war/mountain troll type.. these are the hard skinned rock hard skin trolls... war machines created by some wizard in ages past.. now all they do is run around and wage war on everyone... very dangerous..  these MIGHT regenrate some..
but nothing like

Swamp trolls... these are the ones with the claws all green and.. the fearsome ability to regenerate.  with wounds that close up when struck they can be truly fearsome creatures...

Well i am tired fo writing now hehe..
just thought i would throw out a few of my thoughts and comments..
tell me what you guys think..

[Toady One]

Yeah, you won't just have to pick a race out of the blue.  I think one of my new Releases on the Plan page has character generation interface in it.  Although I've started it a few times, that will be the time when I actually set up something more lasting for character creation.  Then it will be able to pop up a quick info sheet on each race (these sheets are already programmed -- the game uses them to flesh out the creature whenever you bump into one).

I guess people are really used to DND, but I don't like a lot of the things they've done.  Orcs with big pig snouts for one, although I guess they've toned that down a bit (I haven't seen a third edition orc).  I never thought of trolls as regenerating, although regenerating creatures will be fun.  Trolls are big and ugly and live under bridges and try to kill goats right?  Or they could be as they are in that movie "Troll" <groan> (little and magical and evil).  They predate Tolkien certainly.  Did Tolkien make orcs?  I think he did.  What are the actual legends behind kobolds?  Anybody know?  DND didn't invent them.  Not to say that DND kobolds aren't beyond quality.

I think it would be fun to play 4 foot tall crab people.  Or really big ones.  Scurry around causing trouble with pincers and swim away.  Chameleon people with giant horns like many real chameleons have (and color changing skin).  Or gecko men...  has anybody seen a leaf-tailed gecko?  They look like Gollum in The Hobbit cartoon from 1978.  Grey-purple with large pearly pupiless eyes.  But the gecko has a flat wedge-shaped tail.  And suction cup fingers...  and it barks...

I suppose we can go nuts on dragons.  Every fantasy game universe has their policy on dragons, and I think it will be hard to decide on just one for the stock files.  Stock files will probably in the end be set up so that you can mix-and-match your favorites in the atmosphere settings.  DND started off chromatic I guess.  Then there's the non-intelligent vs. intelligent vs. spell-using question.  And wings.  And breath weapons.

Non-corporeal creatures...  elemental creatures...  extraplanar creatures...  there are many categories.  Undead doesn't really count (as a curse applied to a given creature), but might as well.  As we'll undoubtably have many many many stock creatures as Zonk says, we might have to set up some basic categories to make character generation easier.  Any limits?  I guess not.  If somebody wants to play an animal that's fine.  There will be lots of mundane stock animals to play.  You know, I think there might be room for playing a sheep in the game.  It would suck if I added keas then, though.  Those birds have learned that sheep are stupid and defenseless, and they will perch on a sheep's back and just start eating as if the poor animal is warm carrion.  We've been over that though, since somebody before brought up the necessity of having Tyson-style boxing.

For this reason, creature ideas are great.  The more info the better -- new creatures are one of the best ways to discover what things are missing from the creature definitions and from the game in general.  The code is versatile enough at this point to handle almost everything, it just needs to be thought of first.  And you'll also be able to see your creatures in the game (you'll have editors too of course).  Post more stuff.  Just make sure to add details.  If we can't decide how big a troll should be, we can always have two (either with different subtype, or in two different stock files).  I of course reserve the right to add new creatures without telling anybody about them in advance.

Hey Zonk, did ICQ authorize you on my list?  I had trouble getting myself authorized on your list (it just said "awaiting authorization" for days).  I'm on ICQ regularly.  I've managed to get in touch with Demon on AIM now.

Status screens and bugs...  Status screens and bugs...  Status screens and bugs...  Status screens and bugs...

[Zonk]

if you think to it,the attributes of races also depends on the universe genre:

in a normal fantasy,we will have armies of strong giant,while in a FAIRY fantasy,the giants will be about 10-20 in the whole word,but they would be MUCH stronger since they would be more..."epic"?

also,by the way,i also heard rumors about trolls being able blacksmiths and artisans,but im talking about the small trolls(4 foot).Also,since we will be able to play animals,what about a stock curse that turn you into a...frog?It's a classic,i know,but it could be funny.
Maybe playing as an animal could be fun and useful for reincarnation.

By the way,Toadyone...why do creature now in the 3d mode have the same size(Grapichally?)?i mean a rat should not be able to block an house door,and ogres should be wider and have a wider green circle i think..

[Toady One]

The circle sizes were just a convenience for now.  When the time comes I'll have to decide on a number of things.  It's easy enough to shrink and grow the circle based on overall creature size.  In real life, a standing wolf blocks more floor than a standing human, but a human is bigger.  If the human lies down, then he/she occupies more space than the wolf, but many creatures can step over the human without touching him/her.  So I need to figure out what I'm going to do and how to do it.

[Zonk]

another thing : by the way are elves immortal?they never die of old age/disease or they can just live 1000 years or something?(a player could reach that in 1 year of real-playing i think).And half-elves?

And,for half-breeds,we just take all the caratteristics of the species and mix them or there are also other modifications?

[Toady One]

Tolkien's elves were immortal.  I don't have old age yet, so I have no idea what stock elves will be like.

Half-breeds are tricky.  First off, many role-playing games are very liberal with which types of creatures can produce offspring.  I guess it adds something to the universe, so I won't throw it out all the time.  Technically, attributes and those kinds of things are easy to mix together, because they are just numbers.  The creature bodies will be much more difficult...  I'll probably use the code that spells use to mash together creatures and mutate them, when I get there.  I'll have to do something like it for shape-changing to match of the arms, account for extra arms, etc.