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[FantasticDorf]

I condensed this for the issue report regarding that personalities don't transfer in a relevant way to needs but here is a slightly more complete list (which importantly i can edit if i find out anything new) out of what i've been trying, tailoring my embark dwarves and training some of my other dwarves with workshops reactions so that they are socially capable.

Four core personality types

Liars - (lying/truth value ~, contradictive values ~ , guarded or private values ~) Liars essentially tell people what they want to hear away from the truth, and is a common type for dwarves (or other beings) with no positive intrinsic values and reclusive personalities, however dwarven society has lying set to low values and a harsh ethic opinion on lying for different reasons that may leave some dwarves without a social skill building lifeline.

• Alcohol makes dwarves worse at lying for obvious reasons too that they feel less defensive about personal information and will not elicit it normally, which lying is a useful get-out-of-jail card for them while making friends too.

• Dwarves with lots of contradicting values also can lie to save face with the social norms of their civilisation if appropriate, instead of clashing with others agreeing with them even though they may secretly be a elf spy wearing a beard-wig with +50 nature value.

Persuaders - (assertiveness++, likes to argue/quarrelsome ~ cultural acceptance-) A mixed bag, dwarves that are not passive in conversations across the spectrum will attempt to hammer points towards other dwarves, and really this can be adopted for both positive and negative personality sets. This is skill determinable whether the dwarf will be successful or if a disagreeing dwarf will bow out negatively for a bad thought or flatter the speaker to save face, the ability of at-least competent persuader + judge of intent is advised on embark load out with chances to train it when you can in order to be socially competent.

• legendary persuaders as observed in adventure mode with DFhack console modding can actually fully flip the values of other beings, so one in fortress (somehow) could adjust open minded (a personality stat) dwarves values to be similar to theirs for better or worse. Books have this effect too as bascially persuaders by proxy depending on the subject though less is known particularly.

Comedians - (humor++ bashfulness+) requires humor primarily, telling jokes  and seems to be exemplified a bit by alcohol but this can be grating to dwarves with no humor leading to obvious grudges.

Conversationalists - (Friendlyness++ emotional bonds+) is the typical method of being good at chatting and friendly discussion, similar friendly types hit off and can make friends well with intermediaries like persuaders & hearing what they want to hear from liars, comedians and unfriendly people are personality subjective whether they will get along.
Misc Skills

Judge of Intent - (emotion++) Actually quite a important one, may help dwarves determine the best response, spare 2 points on this and 3 on core statistic of liar/comedian/persuader/conversationalist when you can or train it otherwise by burrowing random dwarves around the depot and setting them to talk to traders when you've finished main business relations or using workshop reaction XP gain.

Intimidator - (Anger++, Power+) i haven't been able to read in too much what this does, highly aggressive values may opt for them to use this in order to get a good mood if they like arguing, so it's a natural compliment to persuader and may elicit good moods to quarrelers for using aggressive responses. Might determine chances for making a site surrender or tribute when out-numbered, the squad captain should always be the most experienced talker, tactician, ambusher and fighter in the squad since their leadership affects the squads capabilities in total.

Negotiator - (social ability++) Similar to persuader, doesn't seem to come into peer to peer conversations but is a brokering skill for more favourable trades. Establishes counter-deals I think when trades initially will fail due to value problems.

Flatterer - (social ability++, attitude to conflict--) Important skill for deflecting arguements from persuaders or quarrelsome/aggressive people but without other personality facets can be useless other than to just save embarrassment, or grumpyness of being drawn into conversations, especially if the other dwarf becomes satisfied from doing it.

Pacifier - (cooperation++) mayoral skill, possibly standing adjacent or talking might snap out tantrumming dwarves sooner but best applied on the mayor, conflicting reports since tantrumming dwarves are now a recurring phonemeon it should be good to try, maybe put it on fortress guards?

Consoler - (emotional appeals? emotion ?) Im not sure which particular goes into this one, but elicits them being good to cry upon when conducting meetings with unhappy dwarves.

That's my general analysis and for my sources i have been using the wiki, 0.34 pre-taverns and personality re-write has some information over some of the personalities that are transferred over into post 40. such as how straightfowardness has been split up but still affects liars by use of the truth/lying value in deception.

v0.34:Personality trait -Dwarf Fortress Wiki
DF2014:Personality trait - Dwarf Fortress Wiki

The actual present day personality page though is devoid of additional intrinsic information, so i hope some wiki editors can importantly conduct their research to correct any mistakes I may have made here, as well as use their own findings hopefully having my work here as a useful pointer in where to look.

[therahedwig]

I've always wondered if the one balancing fix that prevented Dwarves from going to legendary social skills in one season may have been a little too harsh of a nerf when the new socializing went in, but it seems to be more complicated(no dwarves gaining conversationalist skill, for example).

Intimidator was mentioned in the last devlog, it seems to be related to the ability to flip agents.

Aban was similarly constituted, and an intimidating figure, though she hadn't committed a crime in her life, and Lomoth managed to talk her into scaring the poor noseless bookkeeper (cougar at age 5) into giving Aban some extra supplies for the pair of ne'er-do-wells to share.

I wonder if it'll show up in interrogations as well. I hope the skill gaining is looked at then, outside of the social issues, it might make all new features inheritly bugged too

Anyway, impressive work, how do you suggest we model the verification experiment? Then more people can test it

[FantasticDorf]

I used humans as a netural entity (elves are pretentious and don't really have any gameplay outside of a lot of hard modding work, goblins are too violent), then used their variable values to try and infer the different purposes by tweaking. I may haven not have gotten everything but the kind of findings are universal, if you have to understand that dwarves look at it in a smaller scope.

• XP gain is pretty poor for social skills but 7/10 times it doesn't matter regarding the quality except in persuader and some misc skill (they can't tell different quality jokes etc), the real issue surrounds inebriation disabling liars i think, dwarves spend a long time being drunk or drinking to fufill thirst plus hanging out in a tavern, they can't socialise if they are too reclusive because it pushes their skill requirement from one end of the spectrum of the next to be a completely different or very unbalanced person.

Urist who talks to nobody becomes rude- (affront to politeness which might hurt conversationalist & affect other skills - unconfirmed) brash+ and open+, it only really compliments comedians with persuaders not really caring either-way except maybe becoming more pronged and negative, you can try modifying the inebriation syndrome effects until you find a balance that doesn't violate the dwarven psyche.

• Stoicism creates liars unable to express themselves, and the unhumorous stony faced dwarves presently, though im not sure whether changing the ethic to [ETHIC:LYING:FOR_GOOD_REASON] could change overall attitudes, but lying isnt particularly punished, only in the abstract with [ETHIC:LYING:PERSONAL_MATTER] contrary to [VALUE:TRUTH:30].

Social skills not adequate for them will rust over time if they are only dabbling in it by leaving them to their own accord, but generally the embarkation team will do usual routines pretty well (friends, grudges) when you set up the embark points, but migrants have randomly distributed skills i think though as you will see rust on ones they don't use and a lot of dabbling/novice because at 0 prior or just allocated experience it wont work as well as a deliberate setup.

I wonder if it'll show up in interrogations as well. I hope the skill gaining is looked at then, outside of the social issues, it might make all new features inheritly bugged too

In a way the implementation of needing to have rumors spread in the artifact arc (and particularly the tavern arc) broke this, dwarves would closely guard their secrets if alcohol was not involved or misdirect people with lies. So yes, next arc might be broken if the social growth is too slow, ensuring the mortality of soldiers is difficult enough between checking they have the social stats to carry out a long term career as a militia captain.

The super curious can find virtually anything anyway though, even through the stony exterior of dwarves.

Anyway, impressive work, how do you suggest we model the verification experiment? Then more people can test it

Changing anything particular would break the microcosm which dwarves live in, which is difficult to calibrate, humans being variable changed every time i loaded a new world and played as a human civilisation, so I was accounting for the similarities. The rest of the races are static on a non-individual level.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Wait so... we could have Dwarf Hitler?

[FantasticDorf]

Wait so... we could have Dwarf Hitler?

Given the atrocities of the mermaid farm, i would not be suprised.

Yes. Substantially if they had a villian network, gained power and could both flip the masses & recruit agents with ease, even in the position of a adventurer sowing the seeds of discontent for a uprising so you can take their site by convincing elves nature is completely worthless.

Books and legendary skill persuaders are very powerful indeed, if not blatently overpowered in 40.

[therahedwig]

I've asked about whether WWI diplomacy cascades might be possible, but Toady wasn't too sure as it would need the system in place first.

Though, to be nerdy, I think you shouldn't forget the part where Hilter was pretty good at telling people what they wanted to hear. Everyone I know who took a look at 'Mein Kampf' with modern eyes thought it was an incomprehensible rant of a book. But I guess that kind of subtle modeling of general mood within a society and for populism to take sway might be quite far away for DF.

It'd be fun if something like Critical Thinker could hold off persuasion attempts, even though it's a seperate family of skills.

Oh, one thing that might be relevant: In Adventure Mode, you train the social skills by talking values with a figure. Flatterer is done by dropping the argument, persuader by actually convincing the other figure, etc. But what is interesting is that if you fail to persuade the listener, it causes that to be registered as an argument. In one case I had two followers who were constantly arguing like this with one another leading to one of them getting enraged eventually. Maybe that might also affect the skill take up, as outsiders are trying to spread rumours and thus maybe dwarves don't get to practice skill when they're talking about rumours all the time...

[FantasticDorf]

I've always had a inkling that something was iffy, Toady stopped them talking passively about rumors though in fortress mode after it was brought up that they nattered all the time when you filtered conversation into the announcements. Just a few choice issue reports.

0010874: Having conversations does not train Conversationalist skill
0010366: Dwarves have sentient relationships with other migrant pets

Loci   (manager)
2018-01-11 13:30
v0.44.04: Toady "Stopped extraneous dwarf mode conversation text generation (freezes)", which appears to have entirely removed "trouble" discussions (among others) in dwarf mode.
((http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10315#c37586))

I can't think how a dwarf can hold a arguement with a dog, though friendship is very welcome (animals DO have soul statistics like intelligent creatures that affect personal identities, its more of a happy accident though to find a brave dog who'll yip and chase titans across the fortress.) or in regards to the scope that conversationalist is rather subjective like i've mentioned, it may be the case that the OP of that issure report was drawing up blanks because they kept rolling unfriendly characters or were talking to non-reciprocal people.

[therahedwig]

So, I guess then we could check two things:

1. How does a booze-less human fort do compared to a boozed up human fort?
2. If we filter in conversations, how much do we see value talk instead of other talk like expressing emotions and the like. It seems that in that report you had issues with arguments happening even though all the two figures did was say hello to one another?

Also, we really need to start assembling a 'histfig ai' wikipage with both your and rumrusher's observations. They're getting a little bit too revealing not to have them in the wiki somewhere.

[FantasticDorf]

I wasn't as knowledgeable back then for reference @therahedwig , though i dont think any form of pernamancy with a wiki page would be worth it, because we're still to see what Toady is doing for then next release, we can take stock then (when we're not too busy playing)

[therahedwig]

Ah, the full implications are finally settling in for me: The personality facets determines which conversation paths they take the most, so that's the skills that get trained the most.

So, the private dwarf tends to mostly lie. The quarelsome dwarf tends to like to argue values, so that trains persuasion(and by proxy, dwarves that need to deal with this guy can train flatterer/intimidator/pacifier). The comedic dwarf likes to tell jokes(it's not possible to tell jokes in adventure mode as an adventurer, it's really tragic :C ). And then I guess the conversational dwarf does... whatever is training conversation. I'll try and check if there's a dialog path that I can take in adventure mode that trains conversation, because that might be why that bugreporter is having trouble with it.

But the lowdown is that if you want to train a mayor, burrow them with assertive, close minded, quarrelsome dwarves.

EDIT: Nope, none of the paths in adventure mode allow for conversationalist to be trained, so it must be like comedian then. Now I'm curious what kind of conversations dwarves are having to train it. Maybe it just isn't intergrated into the dialog system yet?

EDIT2: Come to think of it, we cannot lie in adventure mode either...

[FantasticDorf]

Yep you got it. Add to that alcohol peels back the ability for liars to do their thing by forcing them to tell the truth with outgoingness, which is where i slid in the grumbler suggestion and the rest do what's relevant to them, conversationalists i think start neutral discussions that aren't objectively trying to criticise something through 'nuances' like persuaders do.

"I think particularly highly of value x, what about you friend?" > "Angry rebuttal and counter point" < Friendly dwarf flatters them by saying how great the other is to gently let down the conversation.

Yes it is mostly a sad state of affairs that comedian's aren't rated but reciting poetry out loud, is for a opinion, no standup circuit so to speak of putting social skills to use.

(You can lie when you enter a arguementative dispute for reference)