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[helmacon]

Recently, I had to purchase a money order at a local store.

They screwed it up. The order was voided, and I was told that the pending charge would be dropped from my account in 24 hours.

It was not. Within 24 hours the amount was charged to my account.

After a few days of dealing with people at the store, printing bank statements, and a lot of waiting for people, they paid me back the amount for the money order.

My question is this. I have incurred late fees on my rent because I did not have access to my funds to pay rent during that time. When I initially talked to a manager at the store, I was told that if they found that they did need to reimburse my money, they would take care of additional fees because of thier mistake. Today, when I received the original amount, the manager denied ever saying that, and they claimed that they were not liable for any additional fees I had incurred.

It seems to me that since they essentially took my money illegally, they are liable for the financial damages I have incurred because of that. Is that true?


I haven't been able to find legal documentation on the issue, but every bank website I have read states that they would be liable in a situation like that, and the existence of third party liability insurance indicates to me that there is likely legal precedent for that. Can someone more knowledgeable in the area inform me on that? Or if you aren't comfortable dispensing unofficial "legal consul" Which I suppose this could be considered, could you point me towards relevant documentation that I could look into myself?     

[dragdeler]

-snip-

[helmacon]

I did not receive any merchandise. It was a money order, not a product. The order was voided because of a mistake on their side, yet they still charged my account the money.

The money order was intended to be used to pay my rent for the month, since my apartment administration does not accept cash.. Because they charged the money, and I did not have access to it, I was unable to pay my rent at the appropriate time, and I incurred a late fee.

[dragdeler]

-snip-

[helmacon]

That.. I think you misunderstand.

I bought the money order from the store. A bank was not involved. The store fucked up the money order as they were trying to process my payment for it. It was voided and I received a receipt of it being voided before I left the store.

I later found that they had charged the amount to my account anyways.

Because they had charged this amount, and it took several days to sort this out, I did not have the money to pay my apartment complex for rent. I could not use that money to buy a money order somewhere else.

The late fee is between me and my apartment, the two main parties here. Because of the actions of the third party, (the store that fucked up my money order) I was unable to pay my rent and incurred a late fee. Thus, the responsibility of that fee lies with the third party because it was their mistake that led to that fee.

[Trekkin]

You require legal advice, and that cannot be dispensed over the Internet by random strangers. Seek a lawyer.

[Truean]

Please do not quote

Just to note it again, I do not take cases online, this is not a client relationship, but rather a referral to a bar association.

You require an attorney, who is not me, and who is licensed in your area. You should call your local bar association for a referral.

When the person at the bar answers the phone or reads a message, it will help them to know the basics. That way they may give you to the proper type of attorney who is licensed in your geographic area and subject matter (type of problem you have).

1.) Will depend where you are located. Clearly. In the United States, bar associations are often at the county level, in addition to state.
2.) Politely summarize your story  to give to the legal secretary answering the phone, etc.
3.) Applicable rules.

This one is a major issue and believe me, is incredibly complicated, and depends on multiple national, state, academic legal, and perhaps company policy matters. Negotiable instruments was actually a separate section on the bar exam. Simply, it isn't simple.

Money orders are complicated "negotiable instruments," governed legally, administratively, and regulatorily at the state level, with odd academic things called "restatements" by law professors that aren't the law, but may be used in creating and interpreting the law (they aren't enforceable but legislatures may or may not rely on them or parts of them when drafting law that is). That doesn't even get into case law precedent.... 

You may want to explain to the bar association when and where you got the money order (i.e. ABC supermarket), if they used an outside service (i.e. Western Union Moneygram, etc), and how things occurred. It is possible though not guaranteed, that some lawyers may give you a short consultation period to discuss the matter. I recommend coming prepared with some notes, and any document copies you may have. Furthermore, it is unfortunate and I would say unfair, that this may or may not be economically in your best interest to pursue, based upon possible recoverable damages, and legal considerations. This is often as frustrating to the attorney as to any given client, if not moreso. Further, you may ask if there is a regulatory agency that deals with these matters. For example, the State Attorney General, Department of Commerce, or, though it is currently undergoing several issues, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. This is a question for the attorney the bar association refers you to though, not me.

Again, not taking any cases or dispensing advice, but rather a referral to the bar association. No client relationship has been created.
I hope this referral may have been of assistance. Have a nice day.

Please do not quote, if there's any shred of decency left and you don't want people taken advantage of

[Trekkin]

You know, if you're so overwhelmingly paranoid about people quoting you like this was some kind of forum or reading the advice in your posts as advice, you could always not post.

[Truean]

You knew I was aware of that option when you typed those words, and you may have possibly predicted my likely responses to your statement.

I could tell you I have repeated this conversation to boredom, taught classes, and fought cases on it with clients who thought they knew what they didn't, etc.
Their faces were shocked, mine was resigned, tired, bored, etc.  Others fail to be persuaded, and wish to think what they think. Their failure is regrettable.
I can't think of them. I think of certain requirements I spent years learning that inform my actions: method behind madness.

By all means, please tell OP that I should just have remained quiet rather than point them and similarly situated people in the right direction via proper referral.
Someone getting screwed over by a money order and the complex system they don't understand? All lawyers are bastards, especially the one doing the right thing, right?
Do continue in suggesting I either remain quiet and offer no aid or continue with undue risk to myself without necessary disclaimers.
Please do go on and explain my error in unselfishly attempting to help someone who got screwed for no gain to me. That was, after all, the thread's purpose.

Respond to kindness with mockery. Better yet, make sure I get more death threats like I did in 2015 or was it 2014 when I didn't post for a year, which began my "paranoia." Just for helping.
If you ever wonder why no one helps anyone.... Make sure other professionals like, IT, mechanics, HR, anyone really get worried about things being traced back to them and don't post.
Make sure no one helps anyone. Someone helping someone else in need for free? That just has to stop, or assume the risk and possible punishment for helping / referring?

Haven't said anything at all here in months, for exactly that reason. Pardon me for aiding someone; perhaps I shouldn't in the future.
Very telling how the first time I say anything, to aid someone else in getting the help they need, Its suggested I not post....



You know, you could just leave it alone, and be happy someone somewhere helped someone? I'm trying not to be a total misanthrope, despite seeing a messed up world. Improve it?

[Maximum Spin]

"If you ever wonder why no one helps anyone.... Make sure other professionals like, IT, mechanics, HR, anyone really get worried about things being traced back to them and don't post."
Except... that clearly isn't the case, and nobody has that problem, which is why people help people all the time. Maybe you just don't see it? I know in my case I just use reasonable opsec measures. Go ahead and try tracing something "back to me", as if there even exists anybody to trace it back to; I'll wait.

[helmacon]

Well, regardless of the growing salt here, I do appreciate you posting Truean, and I understand your disclaimer. That's the reason why I added those last couple of sentences in the op.

I think people should help each other if they can, and I'll try to pay it forward when I can. Please don't lose faith and stop helping just because a few people don't like the way you help.

[DwarfToys]

My advice.  This is just life experience speaking.  Most of this stuff is more of mitigation of what's already going on, because lawsuits are a pain in the ass generally speaking.

I'm assuming small claims because you didn't mention any amount, and if the damages were above the max for small claims you need to move the hell out of the place charging that much in fees immediately. 

Small claims may or may not cost more in filing fees than you were charged in late fees where you live otherwise.  You usually get this back if you win, but I know I've been in situations before where having an extra $50 or whatever filing cost (some places it's cost, some it's deposit) is missing from my bank account on top of the money lost from the fee would mean I couldn't eat.  I don't know your financial situation or the cost of small claims locally.  Listening to the resident lawyer post of which we shall not speak  and contacting someone who knows is best if you don't want to track down that part of the information yourself.  I would use it to determine whether you want to mess with the case in the first place though. 

Also, tenants laws vary from protective to non-existent to weird.  Check your own area.  As a random example of a protective one, here's MA, which in part says:

"The lease must not include illegal terms such as:

• The tenant must pay a late fee if a rent payment is even one day late. (A lease or rental agreement may permit the landlord to charge a late fee if a rent payment is 30 or more days late.)

"

Search for "tenants rights <where you live>" and you should be able to find a government website with a listing.  I'm very suspicious of any landlord charging fees very soon after the rent is due.  In my experience those are the same ones who will not fix things that break from being 20 years past needing a replacement, etc. 

In some cases, usually with out-of-state rental companies, the lease will contain items that are specifically illegal in the state you live in, and even if you signed a contract containing something like that, the law may  invalidate your agreement to that part.  It's worth checking on for that reason.  You'd be surprised.  Some areas have no tenant protection though, so it's luck of the draw on that one.   

Once again, this doesn't help any now (but may in the future), but have the bank do a chargeback next time.  Paid for merchandise, didn't receive it, bank refunds and hassles the store for you.  They do it all the time for purchases that were never shipped,  and will not question you if you don't try to abuse it somehow.  Anything bought with a debit card is usually protected this way.   Next business day refund is pretty standard for this. I've rarely had to do it but it works well.

[McTraveller]

Question - if you have a bank account from which you can have funds suspended to write a money order, why don't you just write a check for rent instead of paying the extra fees for a money order?  Or why not set up direct debit from that account for your rent?

I feel like I must be missing something if you are choosing (or are forced to use) a money order as your method of paying rent; that's a very expensive way to do it.

[helmacon]

Question - if you have a bank account from which you can have funds suspended to write a money order, why don't you just write a check for rent instead of paying the extra fees for a money order?  Or why not set up direct debit from that account for your rent?

I feel like I must be missing something if you are choosing (or are forced to use) a money order as your method of paying rent; that's a very expensive way to do it.

So, to give everyone some closure on this topic (and answer the above question) I am going to do one last post before I lock the thread. (Note; this all happened a while back, i'm just updating everyone in the thread.)

First of all, to get a checkbook from my bank is about 20$. Getting a money order is 00.68$ I have literally nothing else I would use checks for. Additionally, my apartment complex does not accept personal checks as a method of payment. It is either via card online (which has a hefty 'processing' fee of 10$ every time I make a payment) or by money order or cashiers check.

Second of all, it turned out that just threatening legal action was enough to get them to cover my fees. It was not a huge amount, but I was in the right and once I informed them that I get free legal counsel from my uni's law school they caved. I just had to bring in proof that I was charged the extra fees and they covered it.

All's well that ends well I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks to everyone that responded.