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[Mostali]

I seem to remember there being some issue with overlapping taverns, libraries, and temples.  But I don't remember what the issue was or where to find the discussion.  Does anyone remember?

I want to burrow 8 dwarves with their bedrooms and their workshops plus one room that overlaps a barracks, tavern and temple.  I suppose I could just try it and see, but I'm in no hurry so I'd rather plan it first.

[PatrikLundell]

Designating a tavern from a table as well as painting a zone associated to the same tavern over the same area caused items stored in coffers to be counted twice. I haven't heard about issues with overlapping zones. I'd rather make the room larger and separate the zones, though.

[Mostali]

This is probably what I read at some point.

From the previous recent discussion on marriages, I want to burrow 8 dwarves - three lover pairs and one married couple.  I want to overlap zones in a very small room to maximize contact.

[Dunamisdeos]

This is important info for party fort.

Thank you.

[PatrikLundell]

I'm guessing that overlapping won't give the desired effect, as I think a dorf scores socializing points only by socializing, but not by happening to be adjacent to someone doing some thing else (like a a socializer next to a meditater).

However, I still don't have any idea of how dorfs take the first step on the relations ladder, but I suspect talking without socializing might be a factor, as dorfs tend to know random merchants better than fellow dorfs, merchants never go to the tavern, and I've seen dorfs talk to merchants (or rather, I've seen dorfs having fought with merchants as a result of disagreements during discussion).

I've also seen speculations that group activities might be bad for socializing. If that is correct, having a tavern that's too small for a dance floor might actually be advantageous for relations purposes (but maybe not as much for satisifying other needs). Note, however, that this is a pure speculation.

[mikekchar]

I think you are right Patrik.  Based on my last (frustrating) effort, my statistically insignificant impression is that temple activities have no impact on relationships.  I had one temple for each god and no non-denominational temple, so dwarfs with the same gods were often praying together.  They did not have an increased frequency of relationships as far as I could tell.

I also burrowed 7 (ish) dwarfs in a separate section and their only interaction with other dwarfs was by bumping in the hallways when hauling.  Even then, they managed to form some relationships with dwarfs in the other burrow (though at a lower occurrence level).

I also had separate meeting halls from locations (none of my locations were ever a meeting hall -- I designated them all by making a dining room from a table and making a location from there).  Idle dwarfs hung out in the meeting halls, while socialising dwarfs hung out in the tavern.  I was not able to distinguish relationships from that, but my impression was that those socialising in the tavern did *not* tend to form new relationships.  It seemed to happen more often from dwarfs who were idling together.

Like I said, I had lots of problems with this fort.  I gave up because my burrowed 7 dwarfs all seemed to have their history change (they acquired spouses outside of the fortress -- and even children!).  It seems unlikely that I missed it when I set up the burrows, but it is possible.  Next time I try I will take better notes (and investigate the dwarfs in legends mode).

If I were to make a guess, I think the best way to form relationships is to have the same dwarfs idling together.  To do that I would make sure that none of my locations were meeting halls and I would create a meeting hall for the burrowed dwarfs (possibly a small one -- there may be a distance factor).  I think I would try burrowing only your 2 candidate dwarfs in that space.

For a tavern, I would make a small tavern, but I would burrow something like 20 dwarfs in the area (and no visitors).  One of the things I noticed was that when you have a tavern for only 7 dwarfs, most of the time the poor dwarfs are "socialising" by themselves.  You need to have enough dwarfs so that you have dwarfs with needs at the same time.  For size, I think I would try making it big enough for 4 dwarfs -- so max 8 tiles?  Big enough that they don't fight, but small enough that they have a good possibility of being in adjacent tiles while socialising.

[Mostali]

In this fort I'm running now almost everybody knows everybody else.  I'm doing a lot to encourage relationships, but I'm pretty sure that all of my efforts are dwarfed (pardon the expression) by one key ingredient:  Any time five or more dwarves "socialize" in the tavern they break into a dance.

Three of them get into a line - one singing and two simulating instruments - while the rest dance in a 7x7 ring nearby.  There is pretty much a dance going on all of the time.  I tried expanding the tavern to see if I could get more types of dances, but it's just the same one all of the time.  I've seen as few as two dancers and as many as ten.  Sometimes it only lasts a few ticks and other times it goes on for days.

So all this dancing seems to work well to get dwarves to recognize each other and eventually move up to friends.  But I've still had no luck beyond that for any but the original seven.

[PatrikLundell]

My attempts at burrowing two dorfs that did not know each other in a (locked) room without any kind of area (meeting/tavern, etc) and nothing to do but eat, drink, sleep, and idling have all failed. mikekchar's approach of an undifferentiated meeting area sounds promising, and it might be worth trying both with selected pairs and with larger groups.

Mostali's experience is interesting, but unfortunately, there is no way to force the buggers to dance, and I suspect there's some secret sauce involved in that fortress to get them to acquire the first recognition step.

[Snafu]

Three of them get into a line - one singing and two simulating instruments - while the rest dance in a 7x7 ring nearby.  There is pretty much a dance going on all of the time.  I tried expanding the tavern to see if I could get more types of dances, but it's just the same one all of the time.  I've seen as few as two dancers and as many as ten.  Sometimes it only lasts a few ticks and other times it goes on for days.

I suspect (this is pure speculation: never tried it myself) that the key is with your performers (sorry for unintentional musical pun there..). They are /simulating/ instruments; if you give them instruments they're capable of actually playing there may be a better effect.. also if they're performing the same piece, swap 'em out for some different entertainers that prefer different pieces (check their thoughts etc for preferences)

[mikekchar]

I have some information on this.  I just observed a relationship starting.  They went from nothing noted to "passing acquaintance".  It happened in the tavern while socializing.  They were standing next to each other.  As far as I can tell, they were mid-socialize, unless they had finished and started socializing again.  There were 4 other dwarfs in the room, also socializing, every other dwarf was standing next to someone they already knew.  No other new relationships started.

Well... a single data point, but I think it is useful.  Socializing *definitely* can start a relationship.  The two dwarfs apparently need to be standing next to each other.

I have no data on whether or not relationships start from being idle yet.

Edit: 2 data points.  Same thing again.  Went from no relationship to "friendly terms" in one go.  But only one sided.  Interestingly, this socialization was broken up because I assigned some jobs.  The dwarf that went off to the job did not register the relationship.  The dwarf that remained, did.