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Author Topic: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium  (Read 1672 times)

Lord Dullard

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Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« on: June 07, 2008, 07:58:00 pm »

Firstly: Hello, all! I've been gone for quite a while from the forums due to a lack of a decent computer, so I'd like to start out by saying I'm glad to be back! I've got a new rig that actually gives me excellent FPS on just about every map I've tried, bless its electronic heart. Despite being able to play all the shiniest new games with my 512mb graphics card, I find myself continuously wanting to go back to DF.. so here I am. Go figure.

On to the topic:

Coming back to playing the game after a long absence has forced me to rethink some of my methods, especially pertaining to industry, goods production, and storage.

In the past, I have been continuously infuriated by the lack of material selection with masonry, carpentry, et cetera. Most experienced players will already be familiar with the problem of their mason ignoring the perfectly good obsidian stockpile five squares away, only so they can make an epic cross-country trek across the entire map to get something two Z-levels above them.

Now, I've tried solving this problem by means of a large 'workshop' with several sealed-off stockpiles (example: http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-2348-templemine  - see Z-level 15). This works to some degree, but only if you're willing to micromanage the entire process extensively. After much experimentation, I've honestly found that a lot of the time it's more trouble than it's worth.

Today, though, something came to me. The problems with the solution as shown above are the following:

-- Despite having access to intended stockpiles on their current Z-level, dwarves will still favor stockpiles 'nearer' to them on the surrounding Z-levels, even if that means walking across the entire map several times to access different stairs/ramps.

-- In order to try and solve the above-mentioned problem, the player is forced to continuously lock the offending dwarf in/out of their workshop.

-- Because of the above solution, restocking the workshop frequently becomes, in layman's terms, a pain in the arse because it is impossible to restock the workshop while the dwarf is present (because allowing haulers access to the shop allows the idiot craftsdwarf access to the outside world and, thusly, the 'nearby' materials on adjacent Z-levels).

-- Even if you have this system fine-tuned, you can never entirely prevent the dwarf's 'first' item in a work order from being made out of something other than what you want (since they'll grab the nearest item when they GET the work order by default, not when they arrive at their shop).

After considering all of this, I came up with the following solution. It does not entirely solve the conundrum, and in fact creates some complications of its own, but :

1.) Dig out a workshop complex suiting your personal needs on a subterranean Z-level. This Z-level should ideally be located BETWEEN the area where you're getting your raw material (above) and the area where you will be depositing the finished product (below). Within this complex you will need living quarters for your worker dwarf, small food/drink stockpiles, and probably a way back to the rest of your fortress that can be sealed off (I'll go into this further in a moment).

2.) Create 'onloading' and 'offloading' areas within the complex by digging channels on the above Z-level and the complex Z-level. These 'chutes' should have dumping zones next to them so that your dwarves will throw D-designated items into the channels. These chutes should be in passages that can be locked off to prevent dwarves from dumping undesirable objects into them.

3.) Get your dwarven worker into the complex and seal the little bugger in. Theoretically you should be able to actually wall him in if your system is properly set up, but it might be a good idea to install a locked door to allow for fine-tuning (at least at first).

4.) From now on, your dwarf should never see their bearded brethren. When you need the dwarf to produce an item, unlock the door to the incoming chute, designate raw materials for dumping, unforbid them once they're dumped, and let him/her go to work. When the order is finished, have the dwarf dump the finished product in the outgoing chute, where (after being unforbidden) hauler-dwarves on the stockpile level will bring it to its proper destination. Food, drink, and any other items the dwarf may need will all be provided through the incoming chute.

Pros:
- If you don't accidentally forget to re-lock a chute passage, the worker dwarf should NEVER have access to improper items. This means you'll never end up with a single incorrectly-colored piece of furniture that will never be used (damned microcline!), thus taking up space in one of your stockpiles for the entire history of your fortress.

- A shop complex with input/output chutes has the unique advantage that new raw materials can be provided while the worker-dwarf is still performing their work order.

- You'll never have to figure out a way to get the dwarf into the shop to begin with to avoid creating the first 'random'-material item; s/he'll always be in the shop.

- Your craftdwarves will never be off doing some inane hauling job when you need them to be producing something, and you'll never have to wait for them to walk all the way from the great hall to their shop, etc.

Cons:

- When dumping raw materials into the shop it will be necessary to de-queue all other dumping tasks to avoid dumping, for instance, 'junk' rocks from mining operations into your carpentry shop. This CAN, however, be circumvented by keeping a hauling dwarf/dwarves in the area with all the incoming chutes along with a selection of appropriate stockpiles and locking off the chute area when you're performing menial dumping tasks elsewhere in the fortress.

- You'll still have to micromanage the locks on the doors leading to each dumping chute.

- You'll have to remember to keep your craftdwarves fed/drunk, since they won't have access to the main food stockpiles.

--------------

This is just the rough draft version of the idea, mostly written down so I can better go about my designs when I start them.

Input, suggestions, or alternatives are welcomed! I realize this is certainly not a perfect methodology, but the aim was to lessen some of the problems I personally consider incredibly infuriating at the expense of a slight increase in some aspects of micromanagement.

[ June 07, 2008: Message edited by: Lord Dullard ]

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Solara

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 08:43:00 pm »

All the crafters doomed to a life of work and solitude, with only the haulers, farmers, and military being able to move freely about the fort...I think I like it.   :D

This would be especially interesting combined with the 'prison fort' theme.

edit: it may be a little tricky dealing with fey moods, though I guess an airlock system might work...

[ June 07, 2008: Message edited by: Solara ]

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Calessa Lynn Orphiel

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 10:00:00 pm »

This brings a couple of ideas to mind I think I'll try out ...
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Aqizzar

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 10:09:00 pm »

You know, I think we've all thought of an idea like this at some point.  A fortress of batty master craftsmen locked in their own union-certified oubliettes, waiting in darkness for the harried slave haulers to bring them food and their one solace of materials.  It'd take a ton of precision and micromanagement, but I'm certainly fiddly and meticulous enough to try.  Yep, gonna try it.
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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2008, 12:26:00 am »

Well, my style was to simply put the material stocks directly beneath the workshop, with stairs right beside it, thus forcing Z-Levels to work in your favour...

But Lord Dullard's idea is a thousand times more awesome. It'd work well with the 'founders get their own huge extravigant locked-off floor' idea, and the dumping would solve the 'twit wanders in to loiter around' problems I've been having, while not having to force the Founders to farm their own food...

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Jamini

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2008, 02:44:00 am »

Hmm, as an added safegaurd you could add in a "piping" level full of water below a level of the workshop with a well, and a single tile of farm on muddied stone where that craftsdwarf can farm a single plump helmet in case of emergancies.

I like it.   :D

Edit:

Even better!

The terrarrium need not contain only one dwarf! You could create craftsman "clusters" that consist of one dwarf each who work with stone, wood, leather, bone, metal, and gems. (reducing the number of dwarves depending on the needs of your fort, obviously) This could save you on micromanaging food and alcohol to groups (however, the supplies stockpile would need to be slightly bigger to accomidate multiple dwarves.) Indeed, while your dwarves are not busy this will have the added effect of improving their mood (friends, lovers, and eventually children), and since they are totally protected against invaders also provides a fail-safe should your fortress military fall.

I'm going to try this!

[ June 08, 2008: Message edited by: Jamini ]

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Avelon

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2008, 02:58:00 am »

Make a channel around your workshop. Flood it with magma.

On the level below the workshop, have a large stockpile consisting only of the materials you want. Create a downstair that goes down 2 z-levels (to avoid the magma in the channel).

Right next to the Upstair on the lower level, have a chute for finished goods. Can't you set a stockpile on Open Space? If not, the good old Trash Chute works fine.

Have a small farm, brewery, and optionally, a kitchen (for dwarven wine biscuits if you want to go that route) on the lower level.

On the other side of the magma moat, a dump chute for materials can be placed, which leads down to the stockpile below.

Now it's a real oubliette.   ;)

EDIT: Minor correction.

[ June 08, 2008: Message edited by: Avelon ]

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Moogie

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2008, 10:16:00 am »

I usually just dig my workshop areas 2 or 3 z-levels away from any other excavation, with the raw material stockpiles nearby. Doesn't seem all that hard to me. =]
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Paul Gross

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2008, 11:05:00 am »

I had great motivation to do this same thing, but I didn't want to have to dump every object I wanted to use (You can imagine in a large fortress, having to dump each individual pig tail, metal ore, stone, wood, etc, etc, etc, would become retardedly complicated.

What I did was derive a complex system of workshop rooms that used pressure plates  as state changers (ie, pressure plate opens a hatch allowing water into a room that has another pressure plate, it was way complicated).  The idea was to have each worker switch off between 2 workshop areas, while keeping himself sealed inside.  While he was in 1 area, the other area would be refilled with resources and finished goods would be hauled off.  When he was done with his work he would swap to the other area.  Same applies for the other state.

Needless to say, it was all planned out nicely and when I tested it I found out the hard way.... Pressure plates don't work!  But you could use levers!

Heres the basic idea:

Craftdwarf Bob gets a bedroom and a lever.  The lever would be fairly complex.  It would create an airlock that would consist of Bob's room and Bob's west wing workshop.  When he hit the lever again, it would close off the west wing workshop and open the east wing workshop.  While opening the east wing workshop to Craftdwarf Bob and sealing the west wing workshop from Craftswarf Bob, it should also open the west wing workshop to the world including Hauler Alice.

So essentially you have 2 states:

Initial design:

...DWDBDWD...

D: Door (Sealed by levers)
W: Workshop area
B: Bed (For Craftdwarf Bob)

State 1:
...DW BDW ...

State 2:
... WDB WD...

So the only thing that is stopping it from working automatically is pressure plates, but you can use a lever (or 2).  I've heard it is possible to make levers that open one door and close another using a trick but I don't know exactly how it works... Only that it requires you to pull the lever twice =].

One more PRO for the system though: The craftdwarf will put all the goods he creates into bins, and the haulers will only have to deal with taking entire bins instead of one object at a time across a long distance... Theoretically.

A movie of the idea implemented using pressure plates (not perfect) can be found at: http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-605-samplepressureplateairlock

Note the idea can be implemented any way you choose.  You can use 3 z levels (workshop, bedroom, workshop) and have hatches instead of doors.  I just wish Pressure plates worked (And didn't have a stepoff delay).

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Exponent

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2008, 01:15:00 pm »

Sean Mirrsen's Mineral Mod has a component that allows you to make all stones economic, so that you can turn them on or off in the [z]->Stones menu.  I use this to turn off all but one single type of stone at a time.  It generally works really well.  The only problem is when you want your masons to be using mudstone and your mechanics to be using olivine at the same time, for example.  Unless you still have some other method to make workshops use only what you want (such as the ones being suggested in this thread), you'll have to let the masons finish their jobs with mudstone first, and then let the mechanics do their thing after you switch to only allowing olivine.  But I can live with this setup personally.  It doesn't involve too much micromanagement.
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Jhoosier

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2008, 11:51:00 pm »

I find un-forbidding all of the items that have to be dumped down to the dwarves to be rather more trouble than it's worth.  I'd forget and starve my dwarves or something.  I find having a small army off haulers, hauling to stockpiles with the workshops one level underneath, to be good enough.  Sure, it eats cycles, but all those haulers are useful when caravans show up.
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Solara

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 12:18:00 am »

I've been experimenting with this and it seems using airlocks in combination with 'take from' piles has almost the same effect, while requiring less micromanagement than the dump method. It's slightly less neat and efficient, but simply having to lock one door and unlock the other is much easier than dumping and claiming a billion individual items.

I'm considering allowing each of my crafters a live-in servant for hauling, but then again I don't really have any so busy that they don't have time to move a few items from one stockpile to another a few feet away a couple of times a season...

[ June 09, 2008: Message edited by: Solara ]

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Lotus

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Re: Idea: The Dwarven Terrarium
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 09:31:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Haven:
<STRONG>Well, my style was to simply put the material stocks directly beneath the workshop, with stairs right beside it, thus forcing Z-Levels to work in your favour...

But Lord Dullard's idea is a thousand times more awesome. It'd work well with the 'founders get their own huge extravigant locked-off floor' idea, and the dumping would solve the 'twit wanders in to loiter around' problems I've been having, while not having to force the Founders to farm their own food...</STRONG>


Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where the point of the game is to make the most convoluted and impractical solution to a problem.

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