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Author Topic: how to deal with different sieges?  (Read 476 times)

SebasMarolo

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how to deal with different sieges?
« on: July 15, 2016, 08:46:56 pm »

I've been sieged only once before by goblins, and they ran away with the season change before I could finish my traps, so my experience with sieges is pretty low (I do know how to set civilian alerts and stuff to get everyone in), and now I'm building a "fort" in an embark that's within reach of everything, elfs, humans, goblins and a tower.

I want to try and capture everything... because of reasons (Also I cant make a military force to save my fort. Literally). I've read that goblins charge blindly and tend to run away if they're losing, so I see little problems with capturing them. I've also read that the undead tend to just linger around, that humans actually besiege you, camping around and stuff, and I couldn't find much on the war ways of elves, just that they bring pretty sweet rides and that they wear wooden armour.

So... How do you guys catch the undead? or elves or humans? How often does the necromancer him/herself show up and how do you campture him/her? How many cages should I have at the ready for elves? I've read they can bring some large numbers...

I'm not at war with the humans or elves yet, but the threat of a goblin or undead siege worries me and the fort just hit the summer of its second year. Resources avaiable: the embark has a volcano with lots of space to build inside the mountain, so no accidentally breaching the caverns for me (it happened once with a prototype vertical layout fort...), its on a heavely forested biome, so lots of wood, no aquifiers but no rivers as well, so not much to generate vast amounts of power with...

So, I guess that's about it, I wanna capture all what I can, but dunno how.
(out of curiosity, do humans die of thirst/hunger if they're chained somewhere for too long?)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 08:52:17 pm by SebasMarolo »
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So uh, yeah you just murdered a until proven otherwise pretty neutral innocent being for no reason.

PatrikLundell

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Re: how to deal with different sieges?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2016, 01:30:28 am »

Since invaders flee when about half of them have been neutralized, capturing all of them would require you to get them to path into an are you can block off before the first ones start to get caught/killed in large numbers. If you were to use that kind of tactic, you should have a (cage) trapped exit you open to let the routed enemy "flee". I'd say that's too much work: just capture those you can and leave the rest for the next siege (they'll usually come back, but you can deplete their home "town", and a civ only sends sieges from a single location, and doesn't know how to recruit from others).

Undead used to just mill about aimlessly, with the occasional case of actually trying to move to the fortress. The situation may have improved, but I haven't had enough sieges yet to say that definitely. The recent "introduction" of bugged hello/goodbye sieges where a siege is announced and then disappear, or almost disappear, immediately is also an issue. In the latter case the stragglers tend to just sit by the edge unless something the can attack comes in range. It's also possible for a few (up to 5 in my experience) additional troops to jump in from off the map if these stragglers are attacked.

I've never had a war with either elves or humans. In rare cases you can be at war with these races on embark, and you can provoke war with them with a sustained effort.

I catch everything using cage traps. Large number of cage traps... The default parameters for maximum sieges is something like 120 troops, the same number of mounts, and 40 trolls/ogres. These parameter can be changed to allow for larger or smaller sieges. Note that this is the maximum: there's nothing guaranteeing they'll be that size. In fact, the first gobbo siege tends to be 10 poorly equipped gobbos. Also, the attacking settlement can be small, and thus only have a small number of troops available. The next siege can occur the season after the last one. You also need a "processing plan" for your captives, or a mighty large "animal" stockpile with an even larger supply of cages.

Undead can attack at any time: I've had them visit at the start of the first summer, so my very first defense is a door I can lock.

Necros are a bit tricky to catch, because they generally sneak and flee as soon as they're detected. If you don't have anything guarding your outer entrance(s) they frequently get caught in cage traps while sneaking, though. However, not having any outer detection means weres will not be detected until they're upon you, which means they'll probably start a blood bath.

Caged enemies do not succumb to hunger/thirst: I've had "goblin" invaders of the elven, human, and dwarven kind that didn't thirst despite being caged for years.

Again, to catch as much as possible, have a long, winding path so they can all get in, close the exit, wait for the front to get caught in the inside massive array of cages, open the escape exit filled with massive numbers of cages. You'll probably want something like 280 cages on each side in that setup...

I use three entrances, a wide trade one and 2 single tile ones. I try to fit as many traps as I can in these entrances (the trade one has a serpentine patch around cage trap lines), but I tend not to get ready with everything before the first siege (undead + I've set the goblin attack threshold to a pop of 20 rather than the default of 80). I then use a divide and conquer handling of the siege: I let a number of them in through the first entrance they target, close it off as the cages start to get full, clear out those cages and reload the traps, meanwhile the enemy tries another entrance... Continue until they break and rout.
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Daris

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Re: how to deal with different sieges?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2016, 09:22:04 am »

You can capture weres without detecting them by setting up door lures near outdoor spawn points.  Build two walls in a funnel shape with a stone door at the small end, fill the funnel with traps, and wait.  How deep you need the funnel depends on whether you're going to catch trolls with it too; if you don't get trolls, it only needs to be ~4 deep.

My experience is that weres take longer to destroy stone doors than they remain in were form.  When they change back, you will receive a notification and they will be trapped as soon as they move to flee.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: how to deal with different sieges?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2016, 10:36:42 am »

I usually just fill chokepoints with cage traps.

Then I create vaults deep beneath the earth to seal dangerous things in for all eternity. It's sort of a theme.

Also, PatrikLundell, do you know if that no hunger thing also goes for constructed cages?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: how to deal with different sieges?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 01:52:31 pm »

I don't think constructed cages behave differently from stockpiled ones for starvation purposes, but have not actual information. I know trained gremlins go insane if caged (due to inability to sleep) and the same is said to happen with (your own) dwarves. The insane gremlin should have been in a constructed cage, as I tossed it into a cage after the other one went feral and had to be put down. That was 0.40.24, but I don't think that behavior has changed.
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SebasMarolo

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Re: how to deal with different sieges?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2016, 11:30:31 am »

@PatrikLundell

Took your advice. I began digging near the base of the Volcano, I'll make 4 tunnels to the outside(one to each direction), and use a central room with staircases that lead into the fort as bait. I'll open the tunnel to which the invaders are most close to, halfway into the tunnel I'll place a shit ton of cage traps, and almost at the end of the tunnels I'll place preasure plates to close the access to the fort, in case something makes it past all the cages. By then I suppose the invading forces will retreat, and all I have to do is close the tunnel which they used to enter and open another one "to let them out".

Technical question. which weight less? Glass or wood? I have plenty of both, but I'd like to know.

Oh, I ran into a "hello, goodbye" undead siege. I saw 3 necros, and they came pretty close to some retreating woodcutters... and then ran the moment they were spotted. Guess their ambusher lvl wasn't pretty good. But that means that if I leave my trap open with nothing that may scare them away, I may catch them all. I may have to look into a way to avoid Werebeast from sneaking in, though.

Just hit the summer of the third year.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 11:32:17 am by SebasMarolo »
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So uh, yeah you just murdered a until proven otherwise pretty neutral innocent being for no reason.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: how to deal with different sieges?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 01:50:51 pm »

Woods have average density of 600 g/cm^3, with actual weights varying from 100 to 1250. Glass has 2620 iirc, so it is at least more than twice as dense as the densest wood.

Werebeasts are not trapavoid in their native form, so if they spend too long destroying a stone door they'll get caged. Titans are, but you can put in a sealing system, such as raising bridge linked to pressure plate beneath a mid-air floating door with minecart on track/ramp pushing against it and another door or two to distract the titan while the bridge takes 100 steps to go up.

You might include a killing mechanisms, but at 1 bridge, 1 minecart, 3 doors and 3 mechanisms you can just spam these on every map edge.