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Author Topic: Yet Another Moat Idea  (Read 1375 times)

§k

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Yet Another Moat Idea
« on: May 26, 2015, 07:50:10 pm »

How would this moat work?

side view:

=======
====+==
++==+++
++==+++
++====+
++====+
+++++++

+ solid wall
= empty space

Enemies would come from left. All walls are soil, except that the upper most wall is constructed block wall(What if it's fortification? Can goblin climb over fortification?).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 07:53:10 pm by §k »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Yet Another Moat Idea
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 08:58:42 pm »

Your moat as it stands is fine, so long as it is a ditch, and not actually filled with fluids.

The game functionally treats fortifications as floor tiles that are unpathable.  (Unless 7/7 fluids are present.) If something manages to get into a fortification, it can just walk out, but nothing is capable of recognizing fortifications as something they can walk into, and they cannot be climbed. 

It IS, however, reported that vertically diagonal movement can occur if the overhang is fortificaitons.  (That is, moving from a wall to an open floor one tile above and horizontally one tile away when a fortification was directly overhead.)

You should probably also make your moat one tile wider and put a drawbridge in there as a "shutter" to stop goblins from firing in if you go with fortifications.  You don't want elite marksgoblins making swiss cheese of your dwarves, as elite-level ranged combatants suffer no penalty for firing through fortifications, and WILL shred dwarves depending on fortifications for protection unless they are armored heavily enough to deflect the arrows.

Also, keep in mind moats are totally useless against fliers.  Personally, I forgo moats entirely in favor of just excavating defenses below the surface, and having "shortcut" exits covered by drawbridge when threats come knocking, "trader" entrances that are shut off from my fort, and only path to the trading depot (which makes them unattractive to siegers), and then "sieger" entrances that are filled with deathtraps.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 09:03:20 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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§k

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Re: Yet Another Moat Idea
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 09:42:02 pm »

Thank you for the information! It is very useful.

I do not plan to fill the moat with either water or magma. Elite goblin archer is indeed a problem. Maybe I will build an inner wall. They probably won't show up in a few years though. The fortification will prevent dwarves from climbing out.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Yet Another Moat Idea
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 10:35:56 am »

If you plan on decking over your courtyard to protect against flyers, you need to carve your fortifications out of constructed block walls.  As NW_Kohaku (hai! Totally love your farm overhaul) said, fortifications are FLOORS that are impassible.  They don't include a ceiling (basically a floor for the z-level above) like walls do.  So if you build fortifications then construct a roof, flyers can diagonally move between the fortification and the "ceiling" you constructed.  If you build walls first, they retain that "ceiling" part when carved into a fortification. 

I haven't done the science to personally test this, as I play like Kohaku does (rarely build above-ground structures).  However, it was apart of another wall discussion thread I don't feel like finding and linking right now >.>

Curious, what is the point of extending the bottom of the moat to tunnel under the wall? To prevent climbers? You can achieve the same results by digging into the stone layer (you should hit it before you get 4 layers down, or soon enough) and then smoothing the stone.  The added benefit to this is that the invaders can't climb back out EITHER direction, and will eventually starve in the moat.  If you don't smooth the walls in your design, the invaders can at least climb out the wilderness side of your moat. 

I also prefer to add steel-skinned poisonous FB's to the moat to snack on falling goblins, but that can be tricky to pull off :p I tend to mostly get fleshy FB's that die to single dorfs anyway : /
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schlake

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Re: Yet Another Moat Idea
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 02:35:45 pm »

I do the same thing, and it works well.  The undercut is important.  Without the undercut things climb up no matter how high the wall is.  I've found no reason to have smooth walls down there.  Putting a fortification around the top of the wall protects things on the surface from missile fire and lets marksdwarves shoot out.  If you don't produce wealth you have all the time in the world to build it as well, so you can get most of the surface safely inside the ditch.  If you ditch off most of the map, you need to smooth boulders and clear trees or the caravans will never get to you.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Yet Another Moat Idea
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2015, 03:22:10 am »

Smoothed NATURAL stone is impossible to climb.  Its just smooth like glass without any seems to gain any toeholds/grip with.  So if you dig your moat down into the first stone layer, and then smooth that layer... nothing will be able to climb out either side.  I tend to smooth two layers into the stone and then flood the first one.  Goblins that fall in still drown, and swimmers are still unable to climb out.  I tend to have long snaky bridges built out of constructed floors around the moat too.  These basically make a circle of the entire fort before entering into a covered barracks (with bridge to seal out if needed).  This maximizes the time the goblins stay under crossbow-fire while increasing the number that dodge into the moat from the occasional weapon-traps I place.  I use wood weapons and lower quality mechanisms to encourage dodging off the one-tile walkway into the inescapable moat.  The moat will be at least 3 tiles wide to accommodate this. 

I never said not to use fortifications.  I simply said its best to build block walls first, and then carve fortifications out of them later.  This allows your fortifications to have a floor above them to help keep out flyers later (if you deck over your courtyard).  I believe this is exactly what the other poster ment about diagonal movement through fortifications, but I'm specifically talking about flyers coming from above.  Yes, this requires an extra step.  Yes, this is worth it when that squad of goblins riding giant cave bats show up. 

Naturally, keeping wealth down early is an important step.  No one said otherwise.  Its why I don't use cooks for the first year or so.
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