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[Alfrodo]

But taking an hour long nap in a silken chinese palace bed should not be as restful as sleeping an entire day in a pile of leaves. That's where we draw the line.

Some of the most restful sleep I've personally had was on wooden tables and couches. But I'm sure once a dwarf goes to bed it's because he's tired, and not because he "has to go to work tomorrow" or "because the clock says so" So they probably fall asleep quite quickly anyhow.

Spoken like someone who's never had insomnia...

Anyway, the idea is more that it's a difference between feeling rested after 6 hours of sleep on a fantastic bed versus still feeling grogy, tired, stiff, and aching after even 12 hours in a lumpy cot or sleeping on the couch, or not being able to sleep no matter how exhausted you feel. 

... And it's not like dwarves can wake up with a pair of Advil like I have to...

You can argue against that all you want, but that's where "we" draw the line. (As though we're speaking for some sort of invisible majorities that actually decide these things...)

Well, You're right. But what I was trying to say was against the "Better beds rest faster" thing. Because most of us still need 7-9 hours of sleep to get by, even if it's in a nice ☼Spruce Bed☼.
Of course, it'd still be painful to wake up after a 7 hour sleep in a pile of broken bricks.  But that would take in the form of "Ushrir Nodulab feels annoyance after sleeping on a particularly nasty cot/bed/mud puddle/table/pile of XXEarthenware BricksXX"
or "Urist Mchasanicebed feels pleasure after having a good/excellent/suburb/impossibly restful/ night's sleep"

[Vattic]

Considering how mechanisms would have to work, a coil is probably required, anyway.  The technological end date is more thematic than a hardline of technological progress, anyway.  Toady's opposed to steampunk dwarves riding trains and firing guns, but water clocks, dungeons that involve spikes repeatedly springing from the ground based upon gears tied to a minecart, and something like the Antikythera Mechanism is fine, since it "feels Medieval fantasy".

Like I said springs themselves are pretty appropriate and traps are planned to be made more complex. I was just pointing the date out because personally I find the idea of coiled mattresses modern while stuffed ones feel more medieval fantasy. A taste thing I guess.

I don't follow what you said about mechanisms. They are so abstracted to be essentially magical links.

As for "sleeping faster", I think that's probably more a matter of conceptualization.  Surely you've had some places you've slept that are more restful than others.  Maybe you took longer to get comfortable enough to actually start sleeping, or you didn't sleep as deeply? This would be abstracting that tossing and turning phase down a bit.

The alternative to "sleeping faster" would be sleeping to a lower maximum amount of rest.  That is, you only sleep to 20% fatigue, and have to go to sleep again sooner, but, from a gameplay perspective, Toady doesn't want there to be more breaks than there already are, as it interferes with the rest of gameplay.

Of course the quality of bed influences the quality of sleep up to a point. It just seems like an oddly artificial bonus, I'm not even dead set against, just uneasy. One possible repercussion might be that people with better beds are less vulnerable to vampires; I'm not sure how they pick their targets. A similar mechanic might be possible with magic or even the effect of a biome. If we are to be upgrading beds as crafters level up a better system for replacing them would be nice.

From a narrative point of view insomnia might be interesting in it's own right. They may not have Advil, but coffee and tea are possible.

[Alfrodo]

From a narrative point of view insomnia might be interesting in it's own right. They may not have Advil, but coffee and tea are possible.

I think she/he meant waking up with advil because of aches and pains caused by poor quality Nylon Bedding.

and yes, insomnia would be an excellent syndrome effect, A dwarf is suddenly completely unable to sleep for a couple weeks.  That'll slow down ☼Cinnabar Trumpet☼ production.

and I think that bed replacement should stay the same, just remove, replace, and reassign. But I guess that bedding should be replaced every now and then.  Perhaps when the dwarf is sleeping for the first time in the frame, he or she will bring along some -Quinoa Straw Bedding- with him and replace it if it gets warn, dirty, or on fire?

[Vattic]

I think she/he meant waking up with advil because of aches and pains caused by poor quality Nylon Bedding.

Ah never heard that name for ibuprofen before. I mistook the name for a drug a family member takes to help with sleep problems (can't remember the name).

[AceSV]

Speaking of coffee and tea, I'd love to get a few more substances to abuse in dwarf fortress.  Stuff like caffeine, tobacco, cannabis, opium or coca for ... trade goods.  Yeah!  Trade goods, that's what I'd do with 'em.  Some good ol' coca biscuits and opium roasts. 

Also, I'd love to be able to mod creatures that are TEA_DEPENDENT or CAPSICUM_DEPENDENT instead of only ALCOHOL_DEPENDENT.  Or BAMBOO_DEPENDENT panda people.  So I guess it would be more of a [DEPENDS_ON:(substance class)] kind of a tag

[Alfrodo]

That's a good way to utilize those bags upon bags of coffee beans building up... and clean up those fallen tea leaves.

But I think we should also possibly add Mog Juice, Liquid Fire, and perhaps Golden Salve to that drug list.

Get the elves addicted to Golden Salve and they'll keep coming back with a desperate trade of giant pandas, ravens, and untasty finger limes.

Although I always considered golden salve to have a high value because it was a curiosity, rather than a comestible.

also I am running low on finger limes.

[AceSV]

Sure.  Like with chitin, I would love ways to use up things that are currently useless. 

Also it occurred to me much later that if dwarves were looking for substances to abuse, they'd probably have some great shrooms.  Maybe Adventure mode could have a variation of NetHack's hallucination status.  Tripping out in NetHack can lead to accidental murders, maybe dwarves that abuse shrooms (or other substances) might hallucinate and go on killing sprees or strip naked or both.  So the player can either balance letting dwarves use the shrooms for happy thoughts against the occasional bad trip, or try to ban shrooms and prevent dwarves from jumping on them like they were socks. 

I'm having a lot ideas that should probably go in a new topic...

[Alfrodo]

eh... I think Tarn might want to keep drugs out of the game.

But... Judging by the fact that we're always rewarded with extremely gruesome descriptions of bodily dismemberment when combat occurs, and there's an extremely large quantity of alcohols to obtain.. Something tells me that wouldn't be out of place.

I don't think it should cause murders, though, maybe some other nasty side effects, like... well, indecency, maybe a small brawl and waking up next to someone unattractive and unfamiliar. Murders would be rare.  If you're smart in nethack, you can generally avoid corpsifying anyone you don't want to be a corpse while hallucinating.  Examples being using #chat or my method: trip out in the closet instead.



I think it should also fall under ethics.  Some dwarven cultures will look down upon altering ones consciousness with ingested fly agaric mushrooms, while most elves might be a bit more... hippy ish, man!

Perhaps hallucination should also be a syndrome effect.  Them forgotten beasts be blasting muscimol out of their faces.

I'm having a lot ideas that should probably go in a new topic...

at this point, I think that's the point of this thread, with it branching out into the chitin thread.  It's become one of the many "particularily large pile of mostly previously discussed suggestions." (Except I searched chitin a bit, I didn't find alot of anything.)