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Author Topic: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome. Special Edition Announced  (Read 2733 times)

nenjin

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Alternatively titled "How I learned to quit worrying and love the controller."

Didn't see a thread about it, and I think it deserves its own for several reasons.

First off, I've never finished a DMC game until now. Never even really claimed to be a fan of the series. Sure it had some of the best button mashing out there, and inspired God of War and half a dozen other games....but I never really saw the depth.

Until now anyways. DMC 4 does what other DMCs have done, including dual characters....but the sheer number of combinations of EVERYTHING blows my mind.

First off, Nero. A lot like Dante, but his two big changes are a grappling/slamming/throwing arm instead of styles, and a sword that can either be revved to offer a whole new set of attacks on a hit-by-hit basis, OR can be activated by perfect timing, also on hit-by-hit basis. Put those two together, along with all his sword combos and what not, and you can ninja you ass all over the screen if you've got the skill and timing.

And then there's Dante, who gets 3 different ranged weapons (one of which is more like 6 weapons in one), 5 meele weapons and 5 attack styles, each with about oh, 5 moves in each. (Each ranged weapon, each meele weapon, each attack style has upgrade.)

You do the math. I prefer Dante the most, because seamlessly changing between weapons and styles offers you way more options than with Nero. My favorite combinations are Rebellion/Pandora/Dark Slayer, and Lucifer/Pandora/Trickster (or Dark Slayer). I want to like Gilgamesh, but it's so damn slow, and almost all your attacks keep you rooted to the ground...making it hard to avoid getting hit.

There layers, and layers and layers of nuance to combat. Simple button mashing produces some cool stuff, but truly understanding how the systems work means you can basically bend the game over, bosses and all, with your awesomeness. Playing this game makes me feel old and slow as I try to keep up with all the stuff I can do.

Both characters purchase new skills over the course of the story as per DMC games, but none are mandatory to finish the game, so you can pick the moves and styles that best suit you as you play through, and then replay missions to build up enough money to get the rest.

The game is long too, 20 missions. And even though you re-tread the same levels time..and time...and time again, they manage to keep it fresh. With two characters, variable abilities each time you visit, an advancing story, changing enemies and difficulty and the natural learning factor, I never really got annoyed replaying areas. I was too eager to get into the next fight, and each area changes a little bit each time you visit, visually and in terms of the puzzles and challenges they throw at you.

And then there's all the secret missions, finding hidden health increasing orbs, making money to buy more health increasing orbs and devil trigger timer (yet another facet of game play) from the vendor, secret modes to unlock.....I've put 50 hours into the game and I just beat in on the easy setting, not maxing out a single category of skills or weapons.

The story and the art do deserve props too. The game is gorgeous, and the story is epic. It's dramatic, funny and outrageous, as are all the cut scenes.
For example, you....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I like how the first part is almost over-the-top serious, and the second half totally changes the mood while still managing to resolve things by the end.

And just so I can get this off my chest....

FUCK DMC 4 RRRAARRRR GGNGNASKJAJFAKLKJIOWTASKIJ!!!!

Seriously, some of the secret missions, challenges and requirements to do more than average are UNSANE. The game is downright abusive sometimes with what it puts you through to complete everything, even at the easiest setting. The timing is l33t and unforgiving, and lots of the moves require tons of finesse to pull off on command. My computer struggles in a lot of areas to run at decent FPS, and I actually appreciate it because it slows game play down to the point where I can think, let alone react.

And when it takes 20 minutes of hacking through ***holes just to get to a secret mission, it SURE does blow to fail a ridiculously tough secret mission, die, and have to go back another 20 minutes to get another shot.

(For example, trying to run across vanishing platforms while you're being circled by floating ghosts who are just waiting for you to be FORCED to stand on a single square, so they can skewer the fuck out of you with their laser-needle-attack-thing. FUCK YOU!)

It's like every bad thing ever mentioned on TV Tropes about abusive game design shows up here. If you don't need a guide to get full completion on one aspect or another of this game, I call you a ****ing liar.

I never really appreciated the series until this game, because I could easily loose a few hundred hours perfecting my technique and unlocking everything. I never really did get on the DMC/GoW band wagon, so I'm sure this is coming pretty late for some....but if you want a beat 'em up that's easy to learn, INCREDIBLY HARD TO MASTER, is thoughtfully designed in a lot of ways and will last you a while....give this a look see.

Now time for some sleep so my freaking hands can unclench.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 01:50:02 pm by nenjin »
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Akura

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2010, 07:52:42 am »


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kinda had that in the other three games.
Spoiler: Well, DMC3 had (click to show/hide)
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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 05:55:44 am »

It's cool that you discovered how deep the DMC games can be. I liked the original, and DMC4. DMC3 though is probably my favorite action game.

DMC4 took a huge step forward with Dante's on the fly style switching. Like you said the possibilities are insane. (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3sXpwPXbHY)
But I personally see the game as a step backwards many ways.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


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Blade_Train3r

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 06:48:52 am »

Yeah honestly once you get past the button mashing the already (imo) fun combat hit new levels of malicious glee.

I've only ever managed one SS combo on a difficulty higher than medium (what's it called again? I know the higher ones are son of sparda and dante must die but I forgot the one I played in the most? XD )
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nenjin

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 03:13:33 pm »

Quote
-Nero was fun and all, and aside from his entire second of I-frames on DT, and charge shots he was much more balanced. But the game was too skewed towards him. The enemies, and bosses seemed like they were all designed with only Nero's abilities in mind. (Dante no-damage runs against Chimera'd Assaults was alot like head butting a cheese grater)

I sort of felt this way too...but Dante is way more dependent on his upgrades than Nero to be fully functional, I think. I was really having problems with Dante in combat until I bought Air Hike (after I'd already beaten the game.) That alone increased my mobility a ton and I didn't feel crippled without the grappling arm. The arm is almost (not quite) as effective as Trickster, and it's more functional without any upgrade purchases.

And TBH...because I'm such a newb, I'd forget about my grappling arm until half way through a lot of fights. Like His Holiness Round 1. My. God. I almost lost that fight on easy because I forgot about the arm, and spent 5 minutes chasing that SOB around with Caliber until I remembered.

An aside, but what annoyed me about Nero's arm and bosses was this. Either your arm is a required part of the strategy, or using it gets you beaten to a pulp like when fighting Bianco Credo. (Or gets ignored for 50% of the fight like against Dante.) And they don't really hint at which it is. So half the time I just never used the arm. It also felt like a massive cheap shot to just grab/slam/grab/slam/grab/slam things in my way. It was more gratifying to use other attacks. The arm is neat....but it's pretty one-dimensional, especially compared to Dante.

Quote
-Balance breaking tactics. Don't get me wrong - I know every game has it's share. But DMC4 was littered with them, and that is just not a quality I like when looking for a challenging action game. Like how every boss in the game a pathetic when confronted with distorted Real Impact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0xCdA47r0&feature=related

I only read about DI on the guides when I was about finished with the game, so I didn't try it yet. Like I-frames though, that's something you can choose to do or not do. Is it a bug, or is super seekrit gameplay?

Quote
-The entire tempo of the game was slowed. The actual combat the DMC4 was about as quick as DMC3, but the monsters were in no hurry to actually come up to you. The missions were more spaced out so more time was spent idle in between fights. To top all that off they neutered enemy DT. Which all together caused crowd control to go extinct, and replaying to be more tiresome.

I thought this too by the time I was done. I was like "damn, I don't remember running around this much in older games." That's what makes the Secret Missions so torturous....there is A LOT of level to get through just to get to them, to the point I almost don't want to bother. But I do want to see the Bloody Palace....Also, the forced slowdown that happens during many of their cinematic set pieces (for me anyways) makes even running obnoxious.

Quote
I've only ever managed one SS combo on a difficulty higher than medium (what's it called again? I know the higher ones are son of sparda and dante must die but I forgot the one I played in the most? XD )

The Legendary Dark Knight, I think. I regret playing the game through on easy now. It didn't make any of the stuff I struggled with easier, and made the rest too easy. But I probably would have gotten clobbered and frustrated on Devil Hunter, given how out of touch with the series, and the game play, I was.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 03:33:52 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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Quote from: MrRoboto75
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Akura

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 04:10:43 pm »

Suddenly I feel like dusting of my copies of DMC 1-3. And I do mean dust them off, they've been on my shelf for ages.
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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 06:45:55 pm »

Quote
It also felt like a massive cheap shot to just grab/slam/grab/slam/grab/slam things in my way. It was more gratifying to use other attacks. The arm is neat....but it's pretty one-dimensional, especially compared to Dante.
I understand why you think of Nero's arm that way. But it actually has a deceptive depth (That could also be said about Nero in general), and hold, hold is just fun.

Here is some really solid Nero play with a impressive pure air battle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azLT90VUTJY&feature=related
Quote
I only read about DI on the guides when I was about finished with the game, so I didn't try it yet. Like I-frames though, that's something you can choose to do or not do. Is it a bug, or is super seekrit gameplay?
There's been discussion about that but I don't think anyone outside the Devs actually know. It was certainly a mistake though, whether they missed it because of not testing Gilgamesh while DT'd or intentionally made distorting. I personally think it was a glitch, as that fits with their theme of neglecting Dante.

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Cthulhu

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 12:45:44 pm »

I'm on mission 15, and it definitely feels like the game was made for Nero.  Maybe it's just the ten levels as Nero and suddenly switching to Dante, but I'm getting my ass handed to me.  Still haven't died once, but I'm on human so whatever, but I'm really having a hard time as Dante.  The lack of Y-based combos other than the basic one and the superstabby (Not counting Gilgamesh's stuff, Gilgamesh is cool but I don't use it much) makes it really hard to get a high style score, I think I destroyed my hands killing the statue in Fortuna Castle.
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nenjin

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 03:26:59 pm »

I feel your pain.

I think Nero gets an adjusted style bonus for the stuff he does. Dante has to work MUCH harder to pull off anything above a B.

You gain the most style points when you switch between styles and weapons. I think it's semi-ridiculous in a real combat situation, because honestly that multi-stab attack is brutal...you just don't get squat for style points sticking with the same weapon.

When I got Lucifer though...I basically just mash Y and spin in circles, detonate them, switch to Rebellion/Swordmaster, use the spinning sword attack (grinder or whatever) air juggle some guys, land, and switch back to Lucifer. Do that enough times without getting hit, and you'll see an S rating. Once you get Dark Slayer, drop an Dimensional Slash on top of a bunch of guys with Lucifer stuck into them....then detonate it right as Dimensional Slash goes off. Very killy.

Dante is all about the style and weapon switches. Get comfortable with that and the rest sort of starts to fall in place. And as I said above....your air mobility powers are key. Because of the lack of "cruise control for easy style" that Nero has, Dante needs to be highly mobile to make the most of his stuff. I found it much harder to kick ass until I got Air Hike. Air Hike + Trickster 2 will get you out of virtually anything.

And screw Gilgamesh. I don't know why they thought that was a useable weapon for anything besides cheesing bosses. The only move I like is the mid air Y attack, because dive bomb kicks rule. But it's so slow, even without charging. And show me a normal enemy that's going to sit there and WAIT for you charge an attack to x2, let alone charge 7 attacks to x2. And when enemies have a ranged attack, like those damn lizardmen with their poisoned needle things....you can't sit still for that long or you'll never make style points. You can't even SEE those things in the levels they show up in half the time. I've had lizardmen hit me with those from the other side of a room, to the point where I can't even target lock them. But they can target lock me just fine.

If it's any consolation, I didn't feel like I had clue with Dante until about the end of the game. Nero is just plain easier to get a handle on.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 04:51:37 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

nenjin

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Re: Devil May Cry 4 PC - How I got carpel tunnel syndrome
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 01:49:47 pm »

*blows off the dust*

Bumping because Capcom has decided to release a "Special Edition" of DMC4.

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwEGjnl3aiU

It's ironic I found out about it today considering just last night I re-installed DMC4 and started a Son of Sparda playthrough.

The special edition will feature remastered textures, and 3 New Playable characters. Vergil, Lady and Trish, who you can play the whole? game through as. The Playstation release will get the "Legendary Dark Knight Mode" (Already in the current PC version) and there will be bonus costumes and skins to unlock as well.

Having already beat the game 2 or more times, I sort of doubt I'll run out to buy this. But if you've never played DMC4 and want to, it would seem to be a pretty solid buy.

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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti