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Author Topic: Creating a magic system?  (Read 44832 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #315 on: February 21, 2015, 04:39:52 pm »

Somehow, supposing this system existed in real life, a skull engraved with the blood of the writer on his dying breath somehow contains waaaay more effort and sacrifice than getting some really rare ingredients.

It is about making a genuine sacrifice and less about circumstance really. Rare ingredients usually are valuable in it of itself and the effort of obtaining them usually adds to it. But honestly the type of rare sacrifice would usually be "your best cow".

At least when it came to historical mysticism that was often the case.

The whole "through hoops" magic being more fairy tale then history.
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CaptainMcClellan

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #316 on: March 11, 2015, 05:09:33 pm »

It is acceptable in my eyes if only you must hunt the squid to get the ink, that goes on the pen (made from some trapped bird) to write on the scroll of papyrus (that you made from picking and processing a plant) in order to write out the spell from which you learned by reading some old grimior you found in a dungeon (which, by the way, could've been misread and now you just made a scroll of self immolation instead of fireball)
It's been too many years to remember what it was called, but I used to play a NES game like that. You could rearrange runes to get different spells and such. Needless to say, I died every time.

Voidlord

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #317 on: March 13, 2015, 05:30:06 am »

I would reckon that dwarves should not be able to cast spells, that for puny elves.
Instead dwarves should use runes that are forged directly onto objects. The Runesmithing job would require its own workshop, and be a labour intestive job, to the point that even a Legendary Runesmith takes at least 2 seasons to work a rune onto a item.

The runes avaible differ depending on the material used for the runes, so for example Silver can create a rune of Smiting to add to Weapons which causes extra damage to undead, and unholy creatures.
The amount of runes that can be smithed onto an item would depend on jts quality, so a normal quality item wouldnt be able to hold any runes while a mastercrafted item could hold 4 or a Artifact could hold 7
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BoredVirulence

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #318 on: March 14, 2015, 04:25:47 pm »

When DF does introduce a magic system, there are a few characteristics I think are important...

No gamey "Dwarves don't do magic, because dwarves." Dwarves can become necromancers. What we need is a system that doesn't allow the player to industrialize magic. So, keep it out of their control. Dwarves, or any entity, can practice magic on their idle time if they have the personality disposition for it, and have been exposed to it.

Magic should be limited in how often it can be used. Mana is just a convenient abstraction like hitpoints. I agree that fatigue probably is a better system. As they tire, their desire to cast spells would decrease since its tiring, as well as their ability, and at certain levels of fatigue where it doesn't outright fail, it could backfire. Some skill could modify the chances, but better yet I think skill would keep the entity from casting at dangerous levels, as well as potentially moderate fatigue gain.

Spells should be (if possible) procedurally generated, and maybe some would be persistent and nearly always exist. I have no problem for the standard fireball spell, because in DF, it will actually set people on fire. Procedural generation should alleviate the constant trove of standard spells.

An entity must be exposed to magic to know how to use magic, and an entity must be exposed to a spell before it can be attempted. We could have random people who "seek the knowledge" and eventually a god (or other potential "source") grants them that, and they can teach others. Books could work too. Spells should be acquired through similar fashion, taught by gods, discovered in dusty tome, and accidental experiment (if the entity survives!). This isn't very different than how necromancers work, we could expand those who can grant knowledge, and hopefully mortal wizards would leave their books behind. I would like to see wizards experiment and potentially learn new spells, but it should also backfire.

You can't industrialize it at a fortress level, because you have no direct control. If lucky, you might get a migrant that practices, where you can keep them idle and provide idle friends with similar disposition. You still can't direct it, at best you can cross train them in combat and hope to see it used there (if offensive in nature). More benign spells, such as "healing" and buffs could be used when the dwarf deems necessary. Maybe they decide to practice their buff of increased healing, or disinfectant spell, and head to the hospital. This is more akin to capturing a wild animal, you can capitalize on good fortune, but it's pretty much out of your control.

Since it would only spread to those inclined, and only through teaching and practice, it wouldn't be widespread. You would see small groups in a variety of societies that practice, and their knowledge of spells would be different than other groups because they would be largely isolated. In a players fortress it can be pushed to a larger audience than naturally, but that's only if you get a migrant with the skill. And of course, that migrant might only know one spell.

Of course there are other possible types of magic, such as alchemy or enchanting, that I haven't touched on. They could, and should, operate differently. I see no qualms about industrializing alchemy or enchanting, that sounds like something a dwarf would do. There would have to be limits, such as being at the mercy of what ingredients there are on embark and the small trickle you can get through trade, but they operate differently.

If people want spells that require ingredients, I would suggest only for large complicated spells (such as fireballs raining from the sky), or spells that create a persistent object, creature, or effect. Summoned creatures, golems, and undead should all obviously require ingredients. Persistent magic, such as a portal between two points, constant weather, or eternal fire should require some sort of ingredient or preparation. Hopefully individual's would seek these out on their own if they had knowledge of the spell, keeping it out of the players hand. Putting a cost on a basic fireball spell should be unnecessary, since knowledge of it shouldn't spread far, and wouldn't be common, so we don't need ingredients to add a cost.

I tried to highlight the important portions, but TL;DR, make use of magic up to the individual to use and practice. Make learning required, and only for those with inclined personalities. Make learning the spell's just as important as learning "magic" in general. Keep gamey stuff out, let the simulation decide who learns what, and how its used. Since knowledge would stay in a small group of people, and its up to individual's free will to use it, it can't be industrialized.
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Bumber

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #319 on: March 15, 2015, 10:36:50 pm »

I tried to highlight the important portions, but TL;DR, make use of magic up to the individual to use and practice. Make learning required, and only for those with inclined personalities. Make learning the spell's just as important as learning "magic" in general. Keep gamey stuff out, let the simulation decide who learns what, and how its used. Since knowledge would stay in a small group of people, and its up to individual's free will to use it, it can't be industrialized.
What if the player creates a bunch of adventurer mages and retires them at a fort?
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #320 on: March 15, 2015, 11:52:44 pm »

I tried to highlight the important portions, but TL;DR, make use of magic up to the individual to use and practice. Make learning required, and only for those with inclined personalities. Make learning the spell's just as important as learning "magic" in general. Keep gamey stuff out, let the simulation decide who learns what, and how its used. Since knowledge would stay in a small group of people, and its up to individual's free will to use it, it can't be industrialized.
What if the player creates a bunch of adventurer mages and retires them at a fort?
Well becoming a mage in adventurer mode will be difficult so if somebody really wants to go through a difficult process a bunch of times to retire them into their fort only to unretire the fort and find that it's a massive mess and it's basically ruined then I think that's fine.
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Bumber

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #321 on: March 16, 2015, 12:10:13 am »

Well becoming a mage in adventurer mode will be difficult so if somebody really wants to go through a difficult process a bunch of times to retire them into their fort only to unretire the fort and find that it's a massive mess and it's basically ruined then I think that's fine.
But if they can teach others through books, et cetera, then all the player has to do is get one adventurer to set up an Institute for Magical Dwarven Learning next door to a fort and it's industrialized.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 12:12:16 am by Bumber »
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THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

BoredVirulence

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #322 on: March 16, 2015, 04:33:04 pm »

Well becoming a mage in adventurer mode will be difficult so if somebody really wants to go through a difficult process a bunch of times to retire them into their fort only to unretire the fort and find that it's a massive mess and it's basically ruined then I think that's fine.
But if they can teach others through books, et cetera, then all the player has to do is get one adventurer to set up an Institute for Magical Dwarven Learning next door to a fort and it's industrialized.

Not really. It would require the correct personality traits for the dwarf to practice on their own time. Considering dwarves general lack of magic in most fantasy universes, I would argue that dwarves personalities are generally against magic, making them even less prone to practicing.

I would also argue that that same personality trait should be fairly uncommon in most entities. Even the industrious and power-hungry man generally wouldn't trust magic. Personality traits for different spheres are a good idea I failed to mention too, so elves can be happy with their hippy-magic but maybe avoid death or fire spheres...

Even if you did get a large number of adventurer mages to come to a fortress, they might not actually have the trait to practice magic. You forced them to in adventure mode. And again, you can't force them to use it in fortress mode[/u]. At best you can encourage those inclined by providing them idle time near others so inclined, and maybe provide books. Even then, you can only hope they use it when you want. Not to mention it could be very tiring for anyone that hasn't practiced for decades. Its possible that a fireball spell would fatigue a practitioner of 10 years after only 3 or 4 uses. (but balancing can be dangerous and make it too rare)

If I implemented the system, I wouldn't expect to see 20+ mages stationed at fortifications throwing fireballs. I'd expect to occasionally see drunk-tantrumming mages throw 3-4 fireballs before resorting to fists or blowing themselves up. A grandmaster practicing for 100 years would be rare and powerful, but expect to see more buffs than offensive spells. Expect to see experiments, maybe he constructs a portal to *insert bad place here* in your dining hall, and you have to get rid of it. Maybe his attempt to summon a megabeast succeeds, but he can't dominate it. Frankly, I think you would be lucky if you got a dwarf who could throw a few fireballs AND was a successful warrior.

Remember, in my system, mages have free will, and use magic only when they want to. I think it would be nice to see powerful wizards refuse work, and exercise more free will. It would also be nice to see more spells that do amusing things, or marginally help rather than offensive spells, because its whimsical.



But I do appreciate the criticism. I just don't think that you can industrialize magic since we're relying on dwarven free-will. No matter how you concentrate forced practitioners, free-will limits its use.
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Graknorke

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #323 on: March 16, 2015, 05:43:27 pm »

What are you talking about dwarves lacking magic? Generally dwarves have magic spewing out of their arses, or more literally out of their forges. Innate magic in terms of metalworking is a thing that is very much a standard of fictional dwarves.
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BoredVirulence

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #324 on: March 17, 2015, 07:08:24 am »

What are you talking about dwarves lacking magic? Generally dwarves have magic spewing out of their arses, or more literally out of their forges. Innate magic in terms of metalworking is a thing that is very much a standard of fictional dwarves.

Yeah, but that's about it. I'm talking about spellcasting specifically. I imagine dwarves would make great alchemists and enchanters, but in many fantasy universes you don't see many dwarf mages. Thats not to say DF has to follow that, but if it were so desired, there is an easy way to do it without making it gamey.
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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #325 on: March 17, 2015, 07:15:45 am »

PFI
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