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[monze2]

Hey

First, sorry for my poor english. Have played Dwarf Frotress for some time, but keep restarting because I got new ideas all the time. Now I have an idea, but need a experienced player opinion. It about defense / kill zone, like the one described / shown in http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Security_design#Pulling_it_all_together.

Have anyone consider using the same principle, just using different levels.
I will try to illustrate it here, where the entrance is to the left:
r = Rock, B = Bride, x=Flow, A=Archers, d=Down ramp, u=Up ramp, D=Dog, S = Stair case
F=fortification archers can shoot though

I have 'bold' the path the invaders must take.

Level 0:
rrrrrrrrAAAAAAA
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
r                    r
r                    r 
r                    r
rS                d rr
xxBBBxxxxxxxxxxx
xxBBBxxxxxxxxDDx
xxBBBxxxxxxxxxxx
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Level -1:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r                      r
r                      r 
r                     r
rS      dxxxxxu rr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Level -2:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r                       r
r                      r 
r         uxxxxxd  r
rS    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Level -3:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r                      r
rxxxxxxxxxxx  r 
rx    rrrrrrrrrru  r
rS    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

The idea is that invaders first is force down to level -3 though the stair case. Then they is force to go back and forth, climbing on level at the time, while the archers is shooting at them. The distance walked in front of the archers is greater, and the distance to the archers is lower (more precise). Ballista battery can be placed to the left, one one each level, and the path can be mined with traps.

Invaders come in the the west, and walk down the stair case to level -3. Then walk to the up slope, and arrive to level -2, walk to the up slope, and arrive the level -1, then walk to the up slope to level 0. All the time under fire from the archers.

Is this a good or bad idea?

monze

[AbanShakehandles]

I like the creativity you've employed here, especially the use of the z-space.

One thing I can't help but notice is the lack of traps.

Admittedly, my experience with siege defense is limited. However, a narrow trap-covered walkway over a pit has always played a major role in my successful defenses.

Sometimes your archers are sleeping, or eating, or are far away for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't show up with any ammo. Point being, archers are not very reliable. If the invaders are constantly dodging traps, falling, and climbing back up to try again though, it gives Urist McMarksdwarf a chance to wake up/finish his dog spleen roast/polish off that dwarven beer/get that last booger out of his beard.



tl;dr: Hey neat! But needs traps.

[DonutDrizzle]

I'm on the same page as Aban. Nice design but needs traps.

On the lowest level you could place weapon traps which will make the goblins dive off the walkway and into the pit or be killed by the traps themselves. Just make sure the fall is enough to kill them or they have to climb stairs back to the start.

[Sadrice]

Make all traps minimally deadly, or at least minimally dismembering.  Wooden spiked balls are good, and are easy to mass produce in any forested location.  Glass or an abundant metal can be used elsewhere (but be cautious of using your abundant galena on silver blunt weapons.  They are very deadly.  You would think this would be good, but if an enemy dies on the spot from an attack, the trap will jam.  If he stumbles three tiles and then dies on another trap, that trap will not jam.  Less lethal is better, even when lethality is desired.)  If you put those traps on the vertically zigzagging path, and link the bottom of the drop back to the stairs, so when they dodge off and drop, they break their leg and try it all over again.  It would be good to make the last 10 or so traps maximally lethal, 10 serrated disks of whatever the best material available (or just use cage traps, which are undodgeable) to mop up any persistent survivors.

[monze2]

Thanks for you replies and ideas.
I have lets traps out of the design idea, to keep it simple.

Have been thinking about another design, still using the same z-level ideas.
I will try to illustrate it here, where the entrance is to the left:
r = Rock, B = Bride, x=Flow, A=Archers, d=Down ramp, u=Up ramp, D=Dog, S = Stair case
F=fortification archers can shoot though

I have 'bold' the path the invaders must take, and left the traps and Ballista battery out of the design, to keep it simple

Level 1+:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r                     FA
r                     FA
r                     FA
r                     FA
r                     FA
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Level 0:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r                dx  rr
r                 x   rr
r                 x   rr 
r                 x   rr
rS               x   rr
xxBBBxxxxxxxxxxx
xxBBBxxxxxxxxDDx
xxBBBxxxxxxxxxxx
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Level -1:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r              xur   r
r              x  r   r 
r              x  r   r
rS           dx  r  rr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Level -2:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r          dx  rrrr   r
r           x  r  r    r 
r           x  r  r    r
rS         xur   r   rr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Level -3:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
r        xur  rrrr   r
r        x  r  r  r   r 
r        x  r  r  r   r
rSxxxx  rrr   r  rr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrr    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


If you look at this at the horizontal plan, it will look like this.

Level  1:                       FA
Level  0:                    x  r
Level -1:               x   r  r
Level -2:          x    r   r  r
Level -3:     x    r    r   r  r
Level -4: rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

The idea is, that each invaders is moving back an forth, in the same vertical angle, seen from the archers. So if the archers miss the target at level -1, there is a change the arrow/bolt, it will hit a target at level -3 or level -4.

This however requires, that the bolt will fly in a strait line, like 3 horizontal space and one space down - does anyone know the exact line a bolt will fly?

monze

[Detros]

This however requires, that the bolt will fly in a strait line, like 3 horizontal space and one space down - does anyone know the exact line a bolt will fly?

monze

Bolt will fly where is shot. If it misses it can hit another enemy. Your bolts will not hit your dwarves. Dwarves can shoot both up and down (I think I have so far seen myself only shooting for two levels up/down) but bigger elevation difference means lower firing range. Dwarves will start shooting at like 20 tiles but I think bolts can fly a bit further if terrain slopes down enough.


http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Crossbow#Ranged_combat states
"Crossbows shoot bolts as their ammunition, and will engage targets up to 20 tiles away, including shooting down z-levels. Shot bolts may miss the target and fly a bit further than intended, potentially striking another foe."

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Archery states
"Dwarves will fire at targets 20 tiles away and are able to engage targets that are 3 z-levels up or down without any loss in firing distance."

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Security_design#Simple_5x5_Archer.27s_Tower states
"When placing multiple towers, know that crossbows have a range of 20 tiles, so, depending on whether you want overlapping fire or not (and how intense/accurate), anywhere from maybe 15 to 38 tiles between the edge of the towers is recommended. Crossbows actually have their range reduced by extra height in DF, so all you need is 1 level up to keep enemy archers from using your fortifications against you, and you're set."

[Melting Sky]

This is somewhat similiar to one of my designs except my zig zag is completely vertical under a single wide catwalk rather than yours which is like the side of a bleachers and my zig zag is filled with traps top to bottom with a dodge pit on both sides. A bridge on each side of the cat walk at the top floor level can close the pits so wagons ect. can enter when I want them to.

Watch out for climbing and jumping units. Make sure the walls are smoothed. Critters still tend to take the easiest path but don't be surprised if you find some of them short cutting.

[YAHG]

 I like the design. I doubt they will as good at dodging while they are climbing, perhaps if you had some floodgates at the crest of the hill you could use a waterfall to push the climbers to fall.

[Itnetlolor]

I thought, for a moment, it was more like:

SIDE VIEW:
(repeat as much as necessary, as tall as you want, and hell, even stagger it a bit more;
leaving a clear path between staircases for crossbowdwarves to shoot through)

Code: [Select]

Z+3  X^X X^X
Z+2  X█X X█X
Z+1  X█X X█X
Z=0  X█X X█X
Z-1  X█X X█X
Z-2  X█X X█X
Z-3  X█X X█X
Z-4 ^X█X^X█X^
Z-5 █████████
Z-6 ==> Ballista waiting below
Z-7 ^^^^^^^^^ <== Another ballista waiting below and/or trap gauntlet
Basically, they're a series of up/down towers with staircases lining 2 sides of them, as to not allow the invaders to path around the bend; between and on top of each tower is a trap (mainly corkscrews and disks), and the towers are of sufficient height, and falling off and into the surrounding pits that railroad the invaders through the death towers and force the invaders back through the loop, and all the way to the beginning of the gauntlet.

And like suggested, these will be in front of the fortifications, shooting from the side, so the archers have something to shoot at; in the underground pits that rally the invaders back to start, you can mount the ballistas to clear the pipes of the fallen invaders as they scurry back to start.

So, something like this (TOP VIEW):                     (All Z combined; reference with SIDE VIEW for Z-levels)

Code: [Select]

██████████████████████████████████████████████████  Z+5 or whatever
/▀▌╬ ^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X[u]++++++++++++++[/u]+  Z-4-Z+3
»=>╬ ^ (Return channel where ballista shoots)+++▲▲  Z-6
\▄▌╬ X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X…         ▲     Z-4-Z+3
+++█ (Trap-laden return channel)^^^^^^^^^^+++++     Z-7 (alternatively, you can also place a ballista here)
████╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬████████
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++  Z=0
Crossbowdwarves can shoot between the towers (hitting front and back tower stairways), shredder traps can force invaders to dodge into the pit, or on top of the lower trap; bolts can also force invaders to dodge. Invaders in the pit are welcomed with a ballista bolt down the channel as they bolt like a rabbit out of a viper's pit.

This setup should be cheap and easy to build or mine out, and ought to be entertaining. This was at least my thoughts on using the vertical to your advantage; or at least, what I initially thought was your idea. I don't mind adding this as a security feature for my fort. After a prospect of my region, it turns out I lack the necessary materials to mass-produce good military defenses, so this would make for a good replacement for it, via trap-style and shooting range. In other words, expect to see this feature put into action when I continue my fort. I'll upload a clip if I get it working.

EDIT:
Come and think of it. It can just be staircases, and a floor bridging the gaps between them in alternating style, with a trap on each of them. This leaves even more room for the crossbowdwarves to hit their target with more ease. Just make sure there's nothing between the bottom-most portion, unless headed to the next "tower". Keep the pits -2Z from the bottom-most level as to forbid invaders from shortcutting.

Oh yeah, in the future, [ tt ] (minus the spaces, teletype/the little typewriter icon), along with pre-building it in Notepad, is helpful for making properly-aligned maps for these kinds of setups, like I did.

EDIT EDIT:
Same thing, but without walls (even cheaper material-wise to build; more practical for crossbowdwarves to fire through):

Code: [Select]

Z+3  X[u]^[/u]X X[u]^[/u]X
Z+2  X X X X
Z+1  X X X X
Z=0  X X X X
Z-1  X X X X
Z-2  X X X X
Z-3  X X X X
Z-4 ^X X^X X^
Z-5 ██ ███ ██
Z-6 ==> Ballista waiting below
Z-7 ^^^^^^^^^ <== Another ballista waiting below and/or trap gauntlet
One more idea:
Build these, and have ballista built on each level, and fire at them in a straight line as they charge through. Seeing as there are no walls to worry about anymore. Why not?

Code: [Select]

/▀▌╬
»=>╬ +X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X^X…  Z=0-Z+7 (Invaders come from here) 7x Ballista 1-per level as well.
\▄▌╬ + (Into the base)        Z=0


[Bearskie]

Haaaang on a second... correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm horrible at reading plans (I do better seeing through your horizontal perspective).  But what's stopping the invaders from just climbing straight from the bottom z-level up to the top z-level?

[Detros]

Haaaang on a second... correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm horrible at reading plans (I do better seeing through your horizontal perspective).  But what's stopping the invaders from just climbing straight from the bottom z-level up to the top z-level?

Yes, the second version with open space instead of "towers" and only floor on top won't work unless you space it enough. The bottom of towers can't be connected on one level but you could use several big steps with fortifications on the end. Also up and down stairs would need to be separated more, preventing jumping from staircase to the next one..

Maybe something like this, with attackers coming from right:

Code: [Select]

X[u]^^^[/u]X
X   X  X   X 
X   X  X   X
X   X  X   X
X╬  X  X   X 
██  X^^X╬  X 
█████████  X
████████████
With elite crosbowdwarves yo ucan just go for that first compact staircase tower option and use fortifications instead of solid wall in the middle of towers, like this, with 2 spaces between towers to prevent jumpers:

Code: [Select]

Z+3  X^X  X^X
Z+2  X╬X  X╬X
Z+1  X╬X  X╬X
Z=0  X╬X  X╬X
Z-1  X╬X  X╬X
Z-2  X╬X  X╬X
Z-3  X╬X  X╬X
Z-4 ^X╬X^^X╬X^
Z-5 █████████

EDIT:

I'm loving these designs, but could I ask you guys the favour of putting (CODE)(/CODE) tags around those designs? I'm having serious trouble seeing the alignment properly when letters are different sizes, and I'm sure others are too. Thanks

There you go in case [ tt ] doesn't work for you. Though in fact you have probably been talking to others here.

[Itnetlolor]

Right. I forgot, things can jump now. So yeah, double-/triple-spacing might work better. Fortifications do also make a better alternative to walls; also considering they can't be exploited to walk on top of either (a flaw in walls).

[Skullsploder]

I'm loving these designs, but could I ask you guys the favour of putting (CODE)(/CODE) tags around those designs? I'm having serious trouble seeing the alignment properly when letters are different sizes, and I'm sure others are too. Thanks