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Author Topic: Clothing ‼Science‼  (Read 1822 times)

procyon112

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Clothing ‼Science‼
« on: December 02, 2014, 09:59:35 pm »

I may have found an experimaental bias. Confirming....

Edit:
In subsequent tests I am finding another ‼Science‼ data point which invalidates this experiment:

It appears that if two dwarves are placed during the same tick, the one placed first gets to swing first. When wrestling, this had little consequence. When armed with platinum war hammers vs. cloth, the first strike advantage is huge. Running symmetrical full scale tests in both directions I am not seeing the protective difference in clothing anymore and they appear to be equivalent in protection. The fully armored tests take longer and I will re-run those symmetrically to see if there is a difference, as the 5% seen in the first test is easily explainable by the first strike bias. My apologies for the misleading ‼Science‼, don't forgo the turkeys just yet.

Edit2:
I re-ran the experiments, mirroring each in two experiments so that each experiment had the same bias but in the opposite direction.

Pig tail and leather clothing appear to be equivelent in protection against war hammers. Since leather is lighter, it's probably the better material. I did not do silk/yarn.

Adding clothing under steel armor seems to give a slight advantage. With the bias in favor of no clothes, we get about 52% wins. With it in favor of clothes we get 55% wins. It's a tiny advantage though and may be statistical noise. The clothes chosen were leather dress, robe, cloak, hood, mittens, trousers and pig tail socks with no multiple items.

Overall the weird anomolies are gone from my first experiment. Leather and fiber clothes appear equivalent, and add very slight protection when used in conjunction with armor and probably aren't really significant at the steel level (they may be at the copper level).

I couldn't find any solid information on whether leather and pig-tail cloth were equivalent in protection, so I deceded to run some tests. The results were rather interesting.

First off, just to make sure everything is configured correctly, I ran 1000 1-on-1 battled between 2 buck-naked dwarves, the first of which had a steel battle axe, and the second was unarmed. Needless to say, there was a 100% casualty rate amongst the unarmed dwarves. Good, everything works.

Lesson 1: Don't run naked and unarmed into battle when your opponent has a battle axe. Even if the opponent is naked too, you are going to have a bad day.

So, now I try wrestling. 2 dwarves, no skills, no weapons, both in clothes only: Robe, Dress, Cloak, Hood, Mittens, Trousers, Shoes. The first is in all Pig leather and the second in all pig-tail cloth. Unsurprisingly, the results are almost 50-50. No significant difference when wrestling.

Third test: I give each a copper battle axe while fully clothed. This test is much quicker. Interestingly, 75% of the wins go to the pig tail cloth! Leather looks inferior in this case. This leads me to do some deeper testing.

Fourth test: I swap out the battle axe with a platinum war hammer. I figure maybe the numbers will flip when bashing. Nope. This time, 90% of the wins go to the pig tail cloth! Amazing! I think my leather industry will be much less busy from now on.

Lesson 2: Leather sucks. Pig tail cloth is much better.

Fifth test: I wonder how clothing+Armor compares with Armor alone. I give each unskilled dwarf a steel battle axe, mail shirt, breastplate, helm, greaves, gauntlets and high boots. The second dwarf I add a pig tail robe, dress, cloak, hood, mittens, trousers and socks. 55% of the wins go to the *unclothed* dwarf.

Okay, so it's probably the lack of Armor User skill which is letting the unladen dwarf gain a 5% edge I think. So....

Sixth test: Same as the fifth but give each dwarf grand master armor user skill. Anomoulously, the unclothed dwarf still wins, this time with 56% of the wins, so skill makes no difference at all!

Lesson 3: Not only do clothes not help a fully armored dwarf, they appear to hinder that dwarf slightly even when highly skilled vs. that same dwarf having no clothes.

More testing is needed to determine what my civilian uniform should be, but I think my military will now be clad in metal only. No socks for them, which means less laundry to do!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 02:11:18 am by procyon112 »
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Ives

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2014, 10:54:16 pm »

That's interesting. Pig tail clothing is one of the heaviest you can get, which is why I moved on to cave spider silk - to spare dwarves a few urists of weight. But now it appears like it's more protective!

Try a test with silk clothing, my guess is it'll work as well as leather.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 10:55:58 pm by Ives »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2014, 10:58:13 pm »

Code: [Select]
[DFHack]# combat
...
ITEMS

leather cloak
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     7
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       0
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  0       0
Volume/contact area/penetration:        378
Weight:         1.89
shear yield/fracture:   25000   25000

fiber   cloak
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     7
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       0
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  0       0
Volume/contact area/penetration:        378
Weight:         5.7456
shear yield/fracture:   20000   30000

...

They are equivalent in the lack of protection that they both provide.

55% and 56% are not statistically significant enough to draw conclusions. "Versus" testing is also suspect in that you are not eliminating all the variables that can influence the result. Arena creatures have random sizes, for example, unless you mod it out. There are also now placement problems (where people are facing the wrong way initially) and he-who-attacks-first-wins problems.

utunnels

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 11:27:20 pm »

And leather is much cheaper than any silk/cloth.
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Ives

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 11:36:15 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

His first two tests have been much more clear cut to easily dismiss as random noise (75% wins for pigtail for axes, 90% for hammers, 1000 tests each). Either there's a systematic error somewhere, or there actually is a difference in fabric. The code snippet does show that fiber has lower shear yield and higher fracture, so they're not 100% identical. Of course, I've no idea how materials work in combat, so that's just my dumb and uninformed observation.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 11:54:32 pm by Ives »
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Ives

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 11:37:06 pm »

.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 11:50:38 pm by Ives »
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Ives

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 11:37:24 pm »

Hmm, seems there's been a glitch in the matrix. Sorry for the spam, everyone!

« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 11:51:31 pm by Ives »
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procyon112

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 11:41:57 pm »

55% and 56% are not statistically significant enough to draw conclusions.


Agreed. I don't think increasing armor skill On both sides had any effect. If it did, it wasn't enough to measure.

Quote
"Versus" testing is also suspect in that you are not eliminating all the variables that can influence the result. Arena creatures have random sizes, for example, unless you mod it out. There are also now placement problems (where people are facing the wrong way initially) and he-who-attacks-first-wins problems.

Agreed. Which is why I ran at least 1000 trials. I also ran smaller trials, switching loadouts between sides in case the game was biased in it's placement. The results were consistent. In 1000 trials the affects of randomness should average out. I would not trust individual tests, but thousands of tests run multiple ways maintaining consistent results I have more faith in.

I am finding a bias. It appears that the game preferentially treats first-placed dwarves over dwarves placed on the map second. These get a chance to swing 1 tick earlier it appears. When dealing with larger weapons, like platinum war hammers, this first strike is significant (one shot kills). When running large amounts of tests and taking the first 1000 results, my sample consisted of a higher percentage of these one shots. When mirroring the tests the differences go away.

Quote
They are equivalent in the lack of protection that they both provide.

I disagree. When fully armored the lack of protection is notable. The slight decrease in the clothed dwarf wins over the armored dwarf is probably due to a slight slowdown from extra weight dominating the ever so slight increase in protection. This implies that a dwarf wearing armor should never wear clothing along with it since all the clothing does is slow it down. However, particularly in the war hammer tests, a dwarf wearing leather lost 90% of the time to a dwarf wearing fiber. That is very significant. Something appears to be different between the two armors in terms of protection.

I am more inclined to agree. Further !!Science!! is revealing more about the game engine.

Since an unarmored dwarf must wear clothing, my concern was which industry would provide better protection, given the early game focus of leather vs. pig-tails. Both IMHO are similar in cost to set up (turkey farming, etc. vs pig-tail farming). In the absence of armor it appears that the slight protective nature of clothing is very significant as is the relative differences between leather and fiber, wherever they stem from.

Possibly the additional weight of the fiber gives it a higher density? If fiber has three times the density over leather that could easily account for the differences. Whatever the difference, I think this test bears out that:

This conclusion is now suspect and I believe it is likely false:

1) They do not appear to be equivalent in protection. Unarmored dwarves need to be clothed in something, so I might as well focus on the clothing industry that offers slightly better protection. In this test that appears to be pig tails by a rather large margin.


Insufficient data on subsequent tests. I need to account for the game's placement time bias.
2) The protection they offer is insignificant to an armored dwarf, so don't bother with clothes if you have armor (this was suspected). It may actually be a slight disadvantage (I haven't seen this suspected for reasonable amounts of clothing).

I'm redacting my conclusion
My conclusion: Save the leather for quivers and backpacks. Everything else should be pig tails (or possibly silk... untested since I can't bootstrap that industry rapidly after embark reliably). Clothe only dwarves who are not wearing armor, but clothe all other dwarves completely since some clothes is markedly better than no clothes (and clothes reduce stress, naturally).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 12:54:52 am by procyon112 »
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lukstra

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2014, 11:50:53 pm »

Great !!science!!  These results would have big ramifications for dwarven justice, as it seems from the data that leather-clad dwarves would be more likely to die from a beating or hammering.
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Ives

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 12:00:21 am »

or possibly silk... untested since I can't bootstrap that industry rapidly after embark reliably

You can bring silk thread with you on embarking, it only costs 6 points. Yarn as well.
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2014, 12:07:52 am »

The slight decrease in the clothed dwarf wins over the armored dwarf is probably due to a slight slowdown from extra weight dominating the ever so slight increase in protection.
Assuming you gave them grand master armor user than there shouldn't be any slow down as tests have been done before and at legendary armor user any amount of armor weighs absolutely nothing. While grand master isn't quite legendary it's really close and even if it was armor weighed 10% the normal amount the speed decrease caused by an extra 2 urists(20 urists with five >1 items 22/10) would be nothing.
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utunnels

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 12:14:34 am »

What about bolts/arrows?
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procyon112

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2014, 12:38:35 am »

The slight decrease in the clothed dwarf wins over the armored dwarf is probably due to a slight slowdown from extra weight dominating the ever so slight increase in protection.
Assuming you gave them grand master armor user than there shouldn't be any slow down as tests have been done before and at legendary armor user any amount of armor weighs absolutely nothing. While grand master isn't quite legendary it's really close and even if it was armor weighed 10% the normal amount the speed decrease caused by an extra 2 urists(20 urists with five >1 items 22/10) would be nothing.

I'm doing follow up tests and may have found a bias. Checking my results.

Edit: Done. Original post redacted pending further experiments. Leather vs. Pig tails seems much closer in protective qualities than my original experiment led me to believe.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 01:00:45 am by procyon112 »
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Ancalagon_TB

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Re: Clothing ‼Science‼
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2014, 01:28:51 am »

*excellent* work on finding that bias!  I can't help but wonder how many other experiments it affected...
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Clothing Science
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2014, 02:36:55 am »

...
I am more inclined to agree. Further !!Science!! is revealing more about the game engine.
...

I like your enthusiasm (but not the double exclamation mark meme). However, please know that there was a team effort on the forums over the last year or so that resulted in the discovery of *exactly* how the damage, weapon, and armor stuff works. I am trying to keep a running thread on the topic over on the modding forums: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142372.0 . I also made a (rough) combat calculator script for DFHack, mostly to help modders balance weapons vs armors.

The areas that are still unknown have to do with hit/miss logic, dodging/blocking chances, skill, and the menu of options you get when you choose which body part to strike at. If you want to help discover things, it would be productive to focus on those areas.

The slight decrease in the clothed dwarf wins over the armored dwarf is probably due to a slight slowdown from extra weight dominating the ever so slight increase in protection.
Assuming you gave them grand master armor user than there shouldn't be any slow down as tests have been done before and at legendary armor user any amount of armor weighs absolutely nothing. While grand master isn't quite legendary it's really close and even if it was armor weighed 10% the normal amount the speed decrease caused by an extra 2 urists(20 urists with five >1 items 22/10) would be nothing.

Ever since the combat speed/movement speed split, attack speed is not affected by armor/carried item weight. If the overloaded creature attempts to walk to an adjacent tile, it will take longer to do so and invite more "attacks of opportunity" from enemies within melee distance. If it holds its ground, it attacks at the same speed as other creatures (barring non-standard weapon speeds or quick/heavy attack styles).