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Author Topic: Population cap  (Read 3758 times)

Thisfox

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2014, 05:05:22 pm »

I keep population below 75, various numbers, usually set strict to 70. Enough to get stuff done, not too many to feed, and enough for a standing army of at least ten, no more than twenty. However the population caps do seem to be very erratic: Earlier I had the population somehow get to 79, and migrant waves of children is a nuisance, so I'm constantly locking and starving/drowning dwarf children, despite the fact that the child cap I've set is negligible. Caps which I habitually used last month aren't as reliable this month. Sigh. I want one or two children, sure, but currently my fort population of 70 dorfs contains more than 20 children... and most of them migrant orphans! it's not a good thing.

Pity dwarf children can't push the goddamn minecarts.
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Col_Jessep

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2014, 06:39:28 pm »

World size also makes a big difference.
I'll try pocket but will I still get enough beasts and stuff?
I've found over 120 is just unnecessary, my fps drops to nothing, I can't even keep them all busy.
Same here. I often double up on jobs and even in a fort of 150 I only had 10 "VIPs", aka legendary dwarfs + important nobles. Add 10 more as miners, wood/bonecrafter (mountain embark with few animals) and medics...
40 dwarfs are enough to run the entire fort if I have a squad or two on hauling "break".
I want one or two children, sure, but currently my fort population of 70 dorfs contains more than 20 children... and most of them migrant orphans! it's not a good thing.
I had like 10 children in 150. Extra vampires, savagery and beasts take their toll it seems. Or maybe it was because I aborted the world generation early. I watched the fortresses fall like dominoes and aborted before the last fort fell. I didn't want a dead civ again.
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Linkxsc

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2014, 07:35:39 pm »

60-70 is a good solid number. 1 farmer handling plump helmets can easily handle that, and if you got with 3-4 farmers youll always be ahead of the game. A fulltume brewer, full chef. Couple miners,woodcutters, and various production staff. 10-20 fulltime soldiers and 20 workers isnt that bad of a deal. Not so great when trying to do large aboveground constructions, but meh.
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Col_Jessep

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2014, 08:10:08 pm »

In my forts I give mason, carpenter, mechanic and architect to pretty much everybody. Workshops are reserved for the skilled dwarf(s). Works great and the limiting factor is usually the number of blocks I have stockpiled.
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Badger Storm

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2014, 08:22:37 pm »

I've been running around a hundred dwarves so far, but then I get fps death within ~5 years, and that's not fun.  I'm trying this one with a cap of 72, and I still have trouble keeping everyone occupied.
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Slogo

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2014, 12:06:31 am »

Somewhat contradictory, but the smaller the fort the higher the pop cap can go. I'm at 160 with 70FPS+, but that's because it's a 2x2 embark with a really really tiny fortress.

The higher pops are sort of pointless beyond military, but at the same time it's pretty fun having like 70+ military dwarves.

The key in general is to understand how pathfinding works and what you can do to minimize the impact it has. Big opens areas, for example, only cause FPS drop when dwarves are trying to path through it. Besides just minimizing jobs in big open areas, and that includes putting stuff in stockpiles, you can also help design your accesses to open areas in a way that minimizes how dwarves path through them.

taptap

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2014, 03:38:02 am »

Wish slogo would elaborate his comment somewhat. (I am 2x2, small fort, but open cavern, low pop - I wonder how his 160 dwarf tiny fort looks like)

I am running with 24 pop cap right now, after 20 years fps is still good running at or around max (60 fps in my case) unless a dwarven caravan is present. As I can easily cover all industries (incl. cheese- and soapmaking) with 24 dwarves I don't really see what good more dwarves would do. The increased density w/ more dwarves would likely help in getting marriages going, which is still a problem at the moment, but other than that?

I remember in earlier versions low population forts could get the amount of goblins in seasonal ambushes that others get in sieges - pushing above requirements for sieges at least gave you the opportunity to handle them at once in the open instead of having sneaking ambushes all the time (draining your fps). But even goblin sieges that your military handles easily and usually without losses in open battle - are only fun the first ten times or so. Then it is simply tedium, a megaton of hauling jobs arrived kind of fun. Recently, I started to gen dwarf only worlds with a lot of evil surroundings, but no silly goblins.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 03:41:42 am by taptap »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 12:34:59 pm »

I had a 1x4 embark with 200 dwarves. Because of that they don't get their own rooms, just dormitories. That was really the only accomodation I couldn't make.
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Slogo

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2014, 01:06:57 pm »

Wish slogo would elaborate his comment somewhat. (I am 2x2, small fort, but open cavern, low pop - I wonder how his 160 dwarf tiny fort looks like)

Elaborate in what way! I'd be happy to, but I'm not sure what info you're interested in.

----

Also there used to be no-clothing goblin mods, probably none around anymore, but I don't think they're too hard to implement. They were always nice for solving the goblin clothes problem.

taptap

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2014, 01:35:21 pm »

Besides just minimizing jobs in big open areas, and that includes putting stuff in stockpiles, you can also help design your accesses to open areas in a way that minimizes how dwarves path through them.

What does "you can also help design your accesses to open areas in a way that minimizes how dwarves path through them." mean in practice?

I use quantum stockpiles (for most industries).
I do lock entrances to unused mines.
I used to have "roads" made by traffic priority assignments on the outside. (High priority zone lined by low priority zone.)
What else?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 01:41:35 pm by taptap »
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Slogo

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2014, 01:55:46 pm »

Besides just minimizing jobs in big open areas, and that includes putting stuff in stockpiles, you can also help design your accesses to open areas in a way that minimizes how dwarves path through them.

What does "you can also help design your accesses to open areas in a way that minimizes how dwarves path through them." mean in practice?

I use quantum stockpiles (for most industries).
I do lock entrances to unused mines.
What else?

Large open areas should be at the ends of the fortress for example and adjacent area should connect. The basics of it is at any given point a dwarf is first going to try to take a straight line path to their destination. If that path hits a wall then basically the pathing will spill out from that line at the sides trying to find an opening or way closer to the target.


So take this random fort image I found:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If a dwarf is trying to go from critters -> mess hall the pathing is going to try and move north and east as much as possible. That means the pathing has to fill out and check a fair bit of the storage room, most of the barracks, that room to the left of the mess hall, and the hallway towards the messhall. There's some savings depending on which directions are expanded first, but in general that's the issue. When the pathfinding can't take a straight line to get most or all of the way to a target the pathfinding takes more time to sort of feel out all of the ways it has to check.

I think this can be especially relevant in 3d space. The pathing has no idea where stairs are and the way pathfinding works is it checks for paths by looking at the square that's estimated to have the lowest pathing cost/distance to the target (this cost is always estimated below the actual cost). Typically this is going to be done using a straight line calculation ignoring all walls/collisions. So if you're dealing with a big room below another big room and a central staircase on the opposite end of the fortress the pathfinding is going to choke a bit. it's not going to know how to efficiently find the stairs so it's going to check a lot of the current level to figure out a path to the nearest stairs. That sort of thing is a drain on FPS.

Now open areas themselves aren't necessarily the problem in every case. A square single room fortress should actually pathfind pretty well. I think caverns and the like cause a lot of issues because they're open, but not completely, so the pathfinding still has to figure out ways around obstacles and that tends to cause a lot of space to be checked for pathing.

Generally I think where fortress' struggle with this is with stockpiles. Since you need so many and they are large open areas they tend to be areas of the fortress where dwarves will try to path through them when there's no route. That's why quantum stockpiles help so much.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 02:05:39 pm by Slogo »
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Col_Jessep

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Re: Population cap
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2014, 03:51:03 pm »

I just wanted to throw this link here in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMBQn_sg7DA

It's Tynan Sylvester talking about how he tackled search for items with regions in RimWorld. This change alone brought a performance increase that allowed me to go from 250x250 maps to 400x400. Which is insane!

He shows how A* works which DF is using as well (in a slightly modified version according to the wiki).
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