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[TheFreshPrince]

I feel like I've cheated somehow by using 2/2/2/2/2, because legendary warriors are essentially invincible, there is zero challenge left without the extremely small chance of some crazy FB arriving or digging down to HFS.

Anyone know if there's a big difference between 2/2/2/2/2 and just regular full squad training?

[Sirbug]

Apparently there is. As far as I understand, training in small groups means less time is lost on waiting on them get together for training session.

[TheFreshPrince]

I mean geez legendary dwarves are freaking juggernauts, I had a dragon turn up for the first time just now and thought oh here might be a challenge. Two legendary swordsdwarves carved it up in seconds, just like the big goblin sieges, forgotten beasts and every other threat my fortress has encountered. The only time I've been in any real danger is the first few years before my rabble had time to train to legendary status.

2/2/2/2/2 felt a bit gamey to setup, and now that I see just how overpowered legendary dwarves are it feels like cheating if this training method is faster than just setting a squad of ten to train regularly.

My entire fort and everything it has accomplished feels tainted with the stain of abusing game mechanics lol...

[Sirbug]

Well, if you don't like it, don't use it. 10 men squad will slow training conciderably.

I don't think ordering soldiers train in smaller groups is "gamey". Real problem is their willness to train with no vacation and rest.

[Larix]

It's definitely a bit odd that in .34.11, training speed varies wildly depending on such issues as squad size and previous skill. But using the settings to ensure you get the better and not the infinitely worse performance doesn't feel abusive to me. You can get the same effect just by making two-dwarf training squads and only assembling them to larger combat squads once the main training effort is done.

The issue is that in pre-0.40 organising training takes a very long time, and demonstrations also take extremely long for ridiculously little experience gains. To make it utterly horrible, most training reboots to the organising phase whenever a aoldier picks up a bit of equipment, takes a drink or gets something to eat. This made training esp. of low-skill soldiers absurdly slow in .34.11 and reduced progress to almost nothing in large squads. IME squads with "train 10 minimum" never waited for all ten dwarfs to show up, though, they always worked with what they got, typically in multiple self-selected sub-groups, and only rarely one of those groups waited for a single dwarf who was (invisibly) assigned to their sparring/demonstration session but was temporarily absent.

Especially the excessive time consumption of demonstrations has been removed in DF2014, making training much quicker (perhaps a bit too quick for now, but only slightly faster than a DF2012 squad that got lucky and managed to take off into a sparring cycle instead of descending into a demonstration spiral).

[Sirbug]

Wait so there's no need to arrange smaller training squads anymore?

[NullForceOmega]

If you think squads of ten set to train in pairs is broken, I suggest you consider the unholy abomination that is the danger room, or its one-time use bigger brother the 'shaft of enlightenment', then you can complain all you want about op methods.  I for one will definitely continue to use pair training, as I don't want to bury half my dwarves every year.

[grody311]

DFHack comes with a binary patch to alleviate the squad demonstration bug in DF2012, so if you're running DFHack (and why on God's green earth would you not be) you shouldn't have to bother with micro squads.

I'm aware the danger room method, but what is this 'enlightened shaft' you speak of?

[NullForceOmega]

When a dwarf is in free fall and encounters an upright spear, they will attempt to parry it, and so will gain truly idiotic levels of weapon user instantly, as well as completely negate their fall.  The science is documented in the thread with 'The Shaft of Enlightenment' in its title.

[TheFreshPrince]

Oh nice, so if I am running the starter pack 34.11 (which uses DF Hack, though I only have "pure bugfixes" on with it), regular squad training is just as fast as 2/2/2/2/2 anyways?

[smakemupagus]

You still might want to experiment wih 6/10 or 8/10 or so on active duty rather than the full 10 anyway.  i.e. minimum of 6 active required for training in a squad of 10.  Otherwise sometimes it seems like they get stuck waiting for the whole squad to assemble.  Not sure whether or not this behavior is the same as the Demonstration bug that you guys are already talking about (it's been a long time since i'd played DF2012 without the DFHack bugfixes)

[Skullsploder]

Yeah the shaft of enlightenment is insane. I sometimes use it on goblins if I'm bored and want to give my commander a challenging arena fight. Literally just push a creature holding a weapon down a tall shaft with an upright spear at the bottom. There is a very tiny minutely small chance they will simply go splat, but most of the time they parry the spear. It gives them mad xp gainz because the game counts fall damage as the ground hitting the dwarf. Normally a dwarf cannot parry the ground, but when the ground is a spear, he can. Parrying super deadly literally exploding into gibbets damage = huge xp gain.

[NullForceOmega]

I built a specialized three z-level tall training area for my dwarves.  The top is a 3x3 square of floor with the armor stand in the middle, there are four paths leading to the outer walkway, and below is a pit with upright spears, 10 per square, across the entire floor.  When my dwarves spar, they frequently knock each other out of the upper square and onto the spears, combining the effects of the shaft of enlightenment and five pair training.  Needless to say, goblins do not survive attacks on my fortress.