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Author Topic: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !  (Read 33983 times)

Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #300 on: October 15, 2014, 04:05:16 pm »

At what point did you get Eyes of God, HopFlash?

I'll write more after I finish with some other stuff, but I'll leave that question here to start with.
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HopFlash

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #301 on: October 15, 2014, 05:22:44 pm »

sure...and I wrote Man and TC a pm to talk and plan something but they never wrote back and without both I would have never a chance to do any harm. I had enough to do with the Witch-King followers ;)
This death magic artillery was really devastating :-\

At what point did you get Eyes of God, HopFlash?
good question...I need to search in the old files and I lost my Home-directory some days ago (not my mails where I have all llama-mails) so it would be a little work to search for it.

Why?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 05:24:19 pm by HopFlash »
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #302 on: October 15, 2014, 05:27:15 pm »

I was just wondering if you used that knowledge to try and stir something against me after seeing the lead I had. It sounds like you tried to arrange something but people, for whatever reason, didn't agree to join your cause.
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HopFlash

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #303 on: October 15, 2014, 05:34:48 pm »

I was just wondering if you used that knowledge to try and stir something against me after seeing the lead I had. It sounds like you tried to arrange something but people, for whatever reason, didn't agree to join your cause.
I tried around Round 28 (without Eyes of God) to arrange something against you :)
With my handfull spies and with manual drawing a map I saw that you had significant more land then we others...but all (I too) were afraid to start a war because it was a relative good way to die first :)
And I had a (relative) nice arrangement with you where our border is. Utgard doesn't want any official borders and not long after that the ball starts to roll ;)
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lijacote

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #304 on: October 15, 2014, 05:50:56 pm »

I believe I rejected NAPs, not borders. I might be misremembering.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #305 on: October 15, 2014, 05:53:04 pm »

I was never offered any NAPs :(
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HopFlash

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #306 on: October 15, 2014, 06:04:06 pm »

I believe I rejected NAPs, not borders. I might be misremembering.
right :)
and a border without a NAP is a little bit wacky.

I was never offered any NAPs :(
no but a border with a clear "no big armies near it"...that is something like a NAP ;) ah...and your overwhelming power was an argument too :D
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #307 on: October 16, 2014, 04:06:31 pm »

C'tis postgame writeup.

As the graphs show, I was leading in forts and provinces for the entire game, and after the early parts I had the income lead as well. You could say I grabbed the advantage on turn-2 and never let you guys catch up to me. Dragon helped me expand earlier and faster. I also used him a few times to take provinces several moves away from borders/expansion armies, so I was able to claim way more land than my neighbours. That's a real big benefit to any flying expander.

I didn't want to lose my edge so I pressed for a quick war with Ulm. It took me four turns to go from "expansion finished" to "war with Ulm", longer than I would have liked but I considered it necessary for me to be somewhat ready. Even so, I was counting on him being less prepared than I was, which luckily ended up being the case. He had four vampire counts IIRC, which caused quite a few losses after he went AI but I had the manpower to spare. Ulm gave me two forts but almost no gems beyond his cap income, but I found some decent sites post-war which were nice. (including an enchantment 20% bonus site, more on that later).

After Ulm I wanted to quickly take out the biggest threat to my supremacy, which I viewed to be Utgård>TC>Man>Arco. I tried to secure peace with the last three, which seemed to have worked. I even got TC into allying with me, which made things a lot easier. The original plan was for us two to attack Utgård in the wake of Agartha-incident, but that was changed at some point. I figured that if us two were to attack Utgård, Utgård could appeal for a C'tis & TC vs. The World fight, which I didn't want to face.

So TC and I agreed to first rush Man out of the picture, followed by Utgård. Arco was small enough to not be a consideration at this point. You all know how that went, Man didn't really have a chance when the top-2 players crushed him like a grape. Utgård could have had a fighting chance against me, but I was lucky enough to start my attack after his disastrous attack on Agartha's capital. He had almost nothing to protect his long southern holdings, which I took full advantage of. I just rolled through his provinces and forts all the way up to the capital. The fact that Arco joined in on the fun didn't actually hurt my advance. I lost some scouts in the area so I'm not entirely sure just how much of Utgård's resources Arco managed to attract to itself, giving me easier time. Help was certainly appreciated.

After Utgård went down, I had five thrones within reach. I took them all at the same time and claimed victory. I never claimed any thrones in the game to try and appear as less threatening (did I ever fool anyone?). I had three easily taken thrones at that point, while the fourth was within reach of my major army in Utgård. The fifth was interesting, it was an underwater throne which actually took a lot of planning. I had some 30 shadow troops as chaff (ethereal, amphibious, pretty decent line holder stats, got from a site) and I had empowered one of my mages with 50W gems and had him forge water rings for many turns, enabling me to take half a dozen sauromancers and a lizard king beneath the waves.

Diplowise, I tried to keep talks up with all my neighbours to make myself less likely to be targeted, seemed to have worked. I generally aimed to get demilitarized borders (no significant troop placements in border provinces). It avoids the pitfalls of NAPs, while being a decent indicator of aggression. It won't do anything against sneakier attacks, but that's why you scout and think. At least it gives you a turn of preparation if someone moves a big army next to your border. People seemed to be pretty happy when I offered demilitarized deals.

For most of the game I traded 3E-3D with TC, he had trouble getting enough E and I could always use more D. I also purchased a hammer and flying boots which came useful when I started moving liches around. The extensive trade made it natural to also discuss various plots and schemes while we were at it.

I did try and arrange something with Man, but the trades never really worked out, he was also weaker than TC and had a rainbow pretender, which meant that his lands presumably (and indeed did) had good gemsites for little resistance.

Arco and I agreed to a peaceful border early and that never really changed, I didn't expect him to have much effect on Utgård but I was pleasantly proven wrong. He probably took the edge off of Utgård, making my conquest even easier.

I chatted with Utgård a lot on IRC, but it didn't amount to much in-game. I don't think we ever traded, and he was my second war target. We both agreed that vampires are scary and thus I got to attack Ulm without fearing Utgård's backstabbing. He was free to concentrate on Agartha knowing that I was busy with Ulm. Win-win.

Me and Ulm had a cordial relationship early, but two factors conspired against him. He had the biggest border with me, meaning he was the biggest threat to me and also the easiest one to attack. Second, he had cold scales, cold throne and ability to summon vampires. Those combined could make it extremely painful to invade Ulm at a later date. Based on my success I'd say I was correct on those accounts. It was pretty easy to conquer Ulm in peace, Utgård had no love of letting vampire counts fly freely and Man was happy to vulture Ulm's eastern holdings. I can't remember if I had anything particularly noteworthy with TC going on this early.

I did expect to face a lot more resistance when the Eyes of God went up, as I imagined I had the lead on other players and was worried Arco would use that to stir a C'tis vs. The World fight. Didn't you guys think I was that big of a threat or what?

While I could have used that enchantment sites to get more tomb kings to get more undead, I decided to get liches with it. Immortal D4 casters (26D a piece) seemed like too fun thing to pass up. I had managed to get seven or eight of them when the game ended. I had placed them in my border regions and was prepared to use them and my ridiculous income (25D + TC trade) to throw nasty D spells at invading armies. They never got tested, but I'm sure they could have been annoying to deal with if nothing else, considering my wide and strong dominion. I also summoned three wraith lords (D3, immortal thug/SC's, 40D a pop) before I had the research for liches. Overall I had a ton of immortal D mages running around in my lands. I could have probably used those gems more offensively, but I've never used immortals, I wanted to give them a shot.
I was also summoning couatls (I had two, I could summon one every four-ish turns by the time we ended). Flying S3N3, helped me get anti-magic and howl in any battle I desired. Could have been useful against TC's mageblobs.

Some stuff related to the graphs:
See how I had the most forts? Almost all of those forts kept pumping Sauromancers (StR), and yet I had, relatively speaking, not that great research for much of the game. STR on your main mage really kills your research speed. With LA C'tis you pretty much need to make a choice between research (reborn) or battle mage (sauromancer). I decided to take the research hit and be sure to have a ton of great mages in all my forts should push come to shove.

My army graph? That was mostly me having enough tomb kings to summon just below 50 tomb chariots every turn. It added up. I only had ten reanimators with amulets of the dead, I could have had a LOT more of tomb chariot summoners if I went that route. It might have actually been smarter use of my D gems. With way more tomb kings, I could have easily been creating several hundred tomb chariots PER TURN by the time I won. That could have been fun, they were pretty good in the battles I had access to them.

My pretender build was:
F4 Dragon,
Dom9,
O3P0H3G0M2M2
I could have gone with a W4 dragon (N4 would have been bad tactically) for diversity, but I reckoned that fire dragon with heat was more thematic and the F4 could be useful when forging a booster. Which it did, it let me get to flame spirits much faster without detouring through const-6, letting me get started with just const-4. It was pretty convenient.

I had old mages and no growth, which wasn't that bad actually. It was probably my sauromancer's big D magic, but I only got a few afflictions and all but one were limps, which is bugger all for mages. One mage did get mute in the final winter (halved magic paths). Maybe I just got lucky with the afflictions, but LA C'tis doesn't seem like it NEEDS growth, like some people seem to say about any nation with oldage mages.
Magic-2 was a mistake on my part though. As I said I went with sauromancers, which meant I only had half as many mages even taking advantage of the increased RP. Granted there's still the MR bonus when using shadow blast and whatnot, but I tend to view magic mainly as an RP scale. I could have saved points here and go for something else.

Idea was to use the dragon aggressively to jump and deny provinces from my neighbours, and then follow up with my slower expansion parties. It worked splendidly. MM3 flying helps you claim provinces that you might otherwise need to concede to faster expanders from other nations. One major reason I took a dragon was also that I was afraid people would act a bit more aggressively this time around. I wanted to have some very early muscle to fend off any would-be attackers. But it seems people weren't in a hurry to start any wars, not that it made my dragon useless. I certainly attribute some part of my victory to people's general lack of aggression here. Now I could be wrong, but it certainly sounds reasonable that more aggression => more provinces => more gem&gold income => ?? => profit.

Things could have been different in a graphs-on game. I'm guessing I managed to get bigger than people intended or anticipated.

That's some thoughts on the matter. I might return with some more if I forgot anything. I'd like to hear from the rest of you too. What sort of gameplan did you have? How did it work out? Any observations, thoughts etc. regarding the game?
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HopFlash

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #308 on: October 16, 2014, 05:17:19 pm »

I did expect to face a lot more resistance when the Eyes of God went up, as I imagined I had the lead on other players and was worried Arco would use that to stir a C'tis vs. The World fight. Didn't you guys think I was that big of a threat or what?
As I said...I saw it without Eyes of God with only my few scouts that you was the biggest and most powerfull guy...therefore I was happy to have that save border with you.

(I made a scout map like that every turn and had a little animation made over time but it's lost in my home-dir-deletion-accident last week)

And I talked with my neighbours about you but at this time I don't wanted to be the aggressor because my starting expansion was miserable and I was the smallest one as you mentioned too.

TC was concentrated on Man. Man was afraid that I had my army (with pretender) near his border.
But Utgard was a little suspicious in PMs and dangerous with his shadow-artillery and I thought that he will roll over me after attacking Agartha but then he lost nearly his entirely army and C'tis ask me for war :)

To get some pieces of the cake (I aspected that Utgard has no chance against C'tis) I went for war. But unlucky me Utgard focussed on me what was logical afterwards ;)


My "big plan" was elephant herds but I havn't managed to get enough gold early on because of bad land conquering. My astral-focused pretender was not effective enough either.
I had a Great Enchantress with F1A1W1E2A4D1N1B1.
I wanted to find sites, make research and pump up some nice astral magic.
But most of this was not effective for start expansion and later not powerful enough to make a real impact (only Eyes of God was nice).
Generally I loved the Healer aspect of my Priestess (healing afflications after battles) and that I never had starving troops.


I think the only chance to battle you, C'tis, was that Man, TC and me alliance but both of them never answered my PM at that time (which came relative late perhaps too late...it was after Utgards "defeat") and now as I heared that TC was in something like an alliance with you ... the picture begins to form ;)
It was a "perfect" play of you I think (tactical and diplomacy).

For my part I made "bad" diplomacy and a bad starting tactic to have a real impact on that game...but as usual many things learned for the next game :)
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GENERATION 11: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

Inactive Therian Saga Char: Stormhead
Dominions: 4.03 Berytos; 4.06 Pangaea; 4.08 Arcoscephale; 4.11 Shinuyama
Inactive Wurm Online Char: Stormhead

Darkwind3

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #309 on: October 17, 2014, 05:23:36 pm »

I had old mages and no growth, which wasn't that bad actually. It was probably my sauromancer's big D magic, but I only got a few afflictions and all but one were limps, which is bugger all for mages. One mage did get mute in the final winter (halved magic paths). Maybe I just got lucky with the afflictions, but LA C'tis doesn't seem like it NEEDS growth, like some people seem to say about any nation with oldage mages.
I haven't participated in this game, but I can answer this (well, the implied question). Nature magic increases the lifespan/old age threshold of most mages (Earth magic increases the lifespan of lifeless mages, Death the lifespan of undead mages, and Blood the lifespan of demons), and Fire decreases the lifespan for mages covered by Nature magic, but Death magic also has an influence, as you've noted. It reduces the number of afflictions picked up from old age dramatically. Even D1 has a fairly large effect, but D3 mages almost never get old age afflictions - as you've seen.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 4.08: Small committee game !
« Reply #310 on: October 17, 2014, 07:39:07 pm »

As LA TC, I can confirm that Nature magic does increase a mage's lifespan. My N-random Ancestor Smiths lose all of their old age penalties, turning them into surprisingly good fighters. If I knew the first thing about thugging I'd give them some gear and let them raid.

Anyway, my gameplan was very simple: Survive as long as possible. And I think I did that pretty well, though I did spend most of my time sitting around and letting other people conquer each other.

Really, the most interesting thing I did all game was talk with everyone else. And even then that wasn't very interesting. The only person I regularly talked to was Delta Foxtrot, which was one of the major reasons why I allied with C'tis. Which is not to say that I didn't hear from other people, but nobody was as friendly as Delta or wanted to trade/chat. Really, the main reason that C'tis won is because nobody really talked to each other. Or at least not enough to organize an alliance and defeat C'tis.

Or at least that's my two cents. I did hear a fair bit from Agartha and Utgård, actually. But Agartha was... Agartha and didn't amount to anything before they got blasted by Utgård. And for Utgård... I probably should have talked to Utgård more, honestly. An Utgård/Man/TC alliance would have eventually toppled C'tis, though organizing it was obviously beyond me. Just not aggressive or social enough, I guess.
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